Talk:Og

Extra Notes:

!!! Og's conflict with Israel is first mentioned in the book of ''Numbers'' not ''Deuteronomy''!

The Rephaim, which Og was supposedly from, are believed to be mentioned in the Ras Shamra Tablets of Ugarit, which refer to a people called "rpum." They are described as semi-divine gods or heroes, so the mythological connection can be fairly well established.

As for the historical Og of Bashan, we must look at what evidence is availibe.

In the Tel el-Amarna tablets there is mention of a land called "Ziribasana" or "Ziribasani" of which the mayor "Artemanja" is from:

Artemanja of Ziribašani to the king EA#201 gc(24): Uses 8 line greeting; States, `Behold, to me thou hast written that (all) should be prepared for the archers.' Replies, `Verily, who am I, a lone dog, that I should not go. ... I, together with my soldiers and my chariots (will go) before the archers so far as the king, my lord, commands.';[1]

Scholars believe "Ziri-basani" translates to "field of Bashan." [2]

The fact that a "Basan" is mentioned in the Amarna period, c. 1350 bc (approx. time of biblical Hebrew conquest) is compelling evidence that confirms there indeed was a Bashan as described in the Old Testament.

As to king Og, I do not know if any scholars have identified him from any records of that (Amarna) time period. However, many (vassal) kings of Bashan have been identified-from the el-Amarna tablets. If Og was not one of these kings, then this might indicate Og ruled either before the Amarna period(c.1450 bc?) or later in c.1200-1100 bc.

Kings of Bashan mentioned in el-Amarna tablets:

Ayyab or Aiab c.1350? Ruled as prince of Ashtaroth.

Zirtaya, Zitriyara? c.1330 bc was a ruler of southern Syria or Bashan. A servant of Akhenaten.

Artemanja or Artemanya c.1300 bc was ruler of Ziri-basani (plain of Bashan)east of the sea of Galilee.

Biridaswa or Biridasya c.1300 bc was ruler of Astartu, or biblical Ashtaroth.

Amajase or Amawase c.1300 bc was ruler of Bashan.

These dates and names are only approximate, but give us some kind of idea of who ruled what parts of Bashan during the Amarna era c. 14th century bc. (Anonymous contribution from User:68.123.5.133)

Historical versus Biblical

It's not clear how many of the claims made about Og in this article come from extra-Biblical as opposed to Biblical sources. Most articles on religious figures do include a section that explores their actual, historical existence and how it may differ from that recorded in religious texts (see the articles on Jesus and Moses for instance), which I think might be warranted here if contributed by someone knowledgable enough. Is the "giant" descriptor merely an exaggeration used for effect? Did he rule when and where the text claims he did? Did he ever exist at all? I'm sure historians of the subject have some opinion, and I'd love to see it recorded here.

Just to reiterate...

Assuming the conquest of Joshua mentioned in the OT is even half way historical, Og most likely would have been recorded in different land records from Egypt9as Egypt ruled Canaan up until 1200 bc). He very well might be mentioned somewhere, but until he can be identified his historical validity is in question.

Atleast we know Bashan was mentioned in Egyptian records. Og probably ruled between 1400 and 1200 bc. That his "sixty cities" were utterly destroyed by Israel seems a bit farfetched and exaggerated to me-though not impossible.

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According to Rav Kook, Og represents the physical world and viewed everything in terms of physical strength. He was very angry seeing the Israelites, a small and weak people, defeat the Midianites and the Emorites. Og wanted to use material power - a massive mountain -to destroy the Jews. The mountain, lifted over his head, was a symbol his power. However, Og's faith in power was destroyed by his defeat by the ant, one of the smallest creatures. Physical strength cannot replace spiritual strength. -Neal

the og book series

i just want to commet on this series. it doesnt show og right at all! og was an evil giant! he told avraham that lote was taken so that avraham could die on his way to save lote to keep sarah all for himself1 he said that avraham was not capable of having children! ghe called bnei yisroel weak! he wasn't some member of the "hairy people" who went on stupid adventures with some persone named ru!-jonathan davis

just to reiterate

the only reason Og survived the flood was because he wasnt as bad as the other people of that time but he was still a very naughty boy. -Cas

The Story Of Og's Height

In Most probability, Og was only around twelve feet because of the size of his bed. It pasukim say his bed was a little bigger than twelve feet, and you are usually smaller than the bed you sleep in, to it must be true that Og is around twelve feet. There must be meaning to the storied about his emmence size, where Moshe was only able to strike his ankle, however these are most likely only fables teaching us a lesson and not the actual truth. Perhaps, this story is teaching us that Og had a huge pressance, and was feared by everyone because of his size. However, with the help of G-d you can overcome any obstacle, no matter the size. Og could have gone up to the clouds, and Moshe still would have taken him down with G-d on his side. When you dont hold up your end of a bargain, in the end of it all your end will also be taken away, and you will get whats coming to you. (By, A. Carni)

Og

Og is not as bad as we think. He would have been killed in the flood and Moshe would not be scared to fight him had he been a bad person. He was unable to understand spirituality, which left with only the physical world. If he were able to understand the spiritual world we would not think of him as a badly of him as we do today. jeremy p

Og

If Og wasnt as bad as everyone thinks, then he wouldnt have been saved by sitting outside of the ark. he would have been asked to stay inside. but since he was a very bad person, then he didnt stay inside. the only reason he was saved, was because he told avraham about Lot. -kevin

Og's stature

If a historical Og was truly any sort of giant, I have my douts he was a legitimate 12 or 15 feet tall. Even if he had a bed or srcophagus 9 cubits long, It's more likely he was 8 or 9 feet high in all his battle garb and turban.

Painting of King Uj (Og) and the prophets Musa, Jesus, and Mohammad

File:Http://photos1.blogger.com/img/47/1334/640/thegiantuk.jpg

This is the earliest known (and only known) representation of King Og Im aware of. It comes the 15th century Khalili collection.

The Conquest of Canaan and Bashan

Most scholars feel that the Exodus took place c. 1290-1250, and the conquest was really after 1250. And indeed archaeological evidence shows that Hazor, Bethel, Lachish, Eglon,and Debir were all destroyed between 1230 and 1220, and these destructions are usually attributed to the early Israelites.

Furthermore, by 1220-1210 Pharoah Merenptah mentions the people of Israel living in the hills of Judah. And archaeology confirms that such Isralite settlements did exist at this time and place.

The Conquest of Og in Bashan either took place during the time of Moses, or this was a later battle during the period of Judges, which was attributed to Moses and Joshua. Whatever the case, It seems Bashan was occupied by Israel and the Hebrews sometime between 1300 and 1100 bc, but likely was taken c. 1250, before Hazor was destroyed by Israel.

Therefore, the fact that we have no mention of an "Og" ruling Bashan recorded in the Amarna tablets, makes good sense. Simply put, Og probably existed 100 or 200 years later. The closest name that even matches to Og, would be the name Ayyab (Job), one of the Bashanite kings of the Amarna period.

Some have noted the similarity between the name Og and the king Agag of the Amalekites.

As to the giganticity of Og, it seems to have been an old tradition later elaborated upon by scribes of c. 700 to 500 bc. The bedstead/coffin of Og, seems to have been a real and identifiable relic in the city of Amman during c. 500 bc.

The Ras Shamra tablets of Ugarit which date to the 1300's to 1100's bc (about the time period of Og) describe a people called "Rpum", which can be translated as the Hebrew spelled "Rpm" or Rephaim. In these tablets, there is mention of the Rpm as warriors who travel many days on horse and chariot to feasts of El or Baal. Therefore the physical countenance and warriodome associated with king Og, "the last king of the Rephaim" can be established within a historical plausibility.

Thus Rpum may be a word which initial meant "warrior" or "demigod." The later Hebrew tradion of the Rephaim as being lofty giants can be found in the book of II Samuel.

It is likely Og was indeed a giant in comparison to average men. In the ancient orient, men would choose generals and kings who were above average height i.e. King Saul(who stood head and shoulders above everyone), or Goliath, the famous Philistine champian who stood 4 cubits and a span (6 ft 9).

Yet it is unlikely King Og was 12 feet tall. A coffin 9 cubits long doesn't mean the corpse within is 8 cubits. There are many examples of Egyptian sarcophagi which are this big, yet the individuals within them are 5-6 feet tall.

• It should be worth noting that the Hebrew common cubit of Hezekia's day in 700 bc, was hardly more than 17.5 inches (based on the Siloam inscription).

A cubit of 17.5 inches would indicate a human stature of around 5'4", And it has been proven by archaeological finds, that the average height of Canaanite and Hebrew men during most of the Bronze and Iron age has always been within the range of 5'3 to 5'7. Indeed, men as tall as 5'10 or 6 feet were considered rather tall in those days.

Therefore, a well built 6'6 or 7 ft tall man would easily have fit the criteria for being a giant in those days.

The Giant Moses

There is a quote attributed to "some sources" stating "Now, Moses was ten amot (15 feet) tall. He took a hammer ten amot long, jumped up ten amot and swung the hammer at Og's ankles, killing him." What is the source, and it seems that "Moses" should be replaced with "Og" unless it is claiming that Moses was a giant.

--If Moses is represented as a giant, it was probably a post exile tradition, as the earliest stories of Moses in the Tanakh have him as a normal sized man, indeed it is king Og who is mentioned as the giant, whose Iron bed is still seen in the city of Ammon when the story was written by the Deuteronomist. --70.59.155.91 05:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

King of Bashan

--The clans of Ja'ir, of the tribe Mannasseh took posession of Bashan somewhere between 1300-1150 bc. It seems that this tribe's conquest was later included into one National history where Moses was credited with the victory.

Og and Agag?

The names Og and Agag have remarkable similarity, and perhaps have a common origin. But I am uncertain as to their meaning.