User talk:Forscha

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Draft:European Speedrunner Assembly

Hey, I saw ye created a draft for European Speedrunner Assembly. I'd been thinking of doing something similar, so I edited the draft. I've rewritten the lede of the article a bit. I'm feeling the article may be diving a bit too much into specifics rather than giving a general overview, as well as relying a bit too much on primary sourcing (references with some connection to the subject) rather than secondary sourcing (references independent of the subject). The BTRL section, for example, starts off detailing the SM64 event rather than giving an overview of what the event is, which could confuse readers (and by the looks of it confused the reviewer) CiphriusKane (talk) 19:12, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello! I am well aware that many of the sources in the draft are primary, but I have tried to implement secondary sources whenever I have been able to. A lot of the information in the draft (total donations, for example) have primary sources that just couldn't be matched by secondary sources, as they would estimate or round the amount up or down (or be completely wrong). I have tried to use news articles whenever I've found relevant ones. The article itself is written by first finding sources, then valuable information within those sources, and lastly write a sentence based on them. News articles have a tendency to write about the event, but without sharing any valuable information that can be used for a Wikipedia article. I therefore thought it would be better to use "official" citations instead of reddit posts or forum threads, as Wikipedia doesn't like such sources (understandably).

With that being said, the history section is heavily reliant on Speed Demos Archive forum posts. I couldn't find a way around this as the history for a lot of events born on the internet have a big part of their history within different forums. I tried to balance this by using archived pages as well, to show the actual progress without worrying about edits or deletion.

The history of BTRL did start with Super Mario 64, at least publicly. There were no mentions about ESA wanting to bring out the concept before that first announcement (at least that I could find). The only "history" I know besides that is SpeedGaming's Chase for the Record being a potential "proof of concept" for ESA, but this is pure speculation and nothing public can be found about it.

I personally thought the original lede was better than the one for GDQ, but English is not my primary language, so if this lede improves the quality of the draft I am thankful. Forscha (talk) 19:34, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

The concern with having an overreliance on primary sources is notability. Notability is established through coverage in secondary sourcing, such as this article for BTRL Spelunky 2, otherwise it could be seen as promotion.

Maybe I was a bit overzealous in my pruning of the lede, but the lede is meant to highlight why the event is notable, and I felt some of the details, such as the BTRL prize pool, were better suited for the main body of the passage. What do ye feel should be readded?

Also, the bit about BTRL is that the explanation of the concept is tied heavily to the first event. I feel it'd be better to explain what BTRL is (stuff such as the concept, the format, prize and sponsorship) before diving into examples, so that readers have an idea of what it is before getting specific details. General before specific CiphriusKane (talk) 20:24, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I believe what you are saying is correct, and I am all for changing the article in ways so it is deemed good enough to be publish on Wikipedia. I have personally searched sources for several hours while writing this article, but I absolutely accept that I have missed many. I intended for this to be a first draft for people to improve, but it soon became a project I felt very attached to when reading about the organisations history etc.

Regarding the article being too specific, I understand that it should be "general before specific". I do however think that most of the text in the history-section is relevant and to the point. I tried to get a very clear picture of the history and thereafter boiled it down to "what had caused ESA to become what it is" (splitting from Ludendi, as an example).

Finding secondary, reliable sources for donation totals and history might prove very difficult. But if I understand you correctly these parts might be fine with primary sources due to its reliance on accurate totals/accurate information? Forscha (talk) 20:37, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Alright, I have now improved a lot of the sources with what I could find (including dates and some donation totals). If you have any sources to switch things out with I would be happy if you did. Until then, I will continue my search for reliable secondary sources. Forscha (talk) 21:44, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Great work. I believe it is notable enough to be a published article, though it's still far from perfect. While it's all well and good wanting a detailed history section, it feels to me that the article puts the events themselves as a footnote. It's the events that make it notable. I've identified two more articles (1 2 which can show notability as they pertain to specific runs, but as it stands I'm finding it tricky to place the sources in. I've redone the BTRL section a bit so it now has an overview rather than jumping straight into specifics. Have ye considered looking at the Swedish and Italian Wikipedia articles for sources? CiphriusKane (talk) 01:17, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

The Swedish Wikipedia article is extremely out of date, short and full of misinformation. It also only has a few sources, and pretty much all of them have been used in this article already. I did check the Italian Wikipedia now, but as expected it is the same deal. I have one article I can use for citations for 2013, but that's about it. Forscha (talk) 13:24, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

If you want to implement the mentions of Turbo Tunnel and Mario Relay into the article somehow, these sites also mentions them.1234 I guess a paragraph could be written under the "Today" section where notable news and achievements can be shared? Forscha (talk) 14:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in replying. I feel the "Today" section could probably be converted to be about the events, because currently it seems to be more about the social aspects of ESA with little space dedicated to the events themselves, and in my mind the events and the runs themselves are what make ESA notable rather than board games and ice cream.

I also feel like I should mention the sourcing. I just had a look at the sourcing for the statement "Each event also hosts several internal gaming tournaments, has a room dedicated to board games and tends to have attendees take part in other social activities, such as party games and role playing games." and it's all non-significant coverage that just confirms the statement is true without any indication of notability. The TechRaptor article is just a passing mention, the YouTube video is interviews where the board games are briefly shown at the end which essentially amounts to zero coverage, the first Destructoid article has the social stuff as an addendum at the end and the second Destructoid article is completely irrelevant to the statement from what I can see. From what I can tell, unnecessary reference bombing is frowned upon.

I can understand yer eagerness to get the article into the mainspace, but in my opinion the article is far from ready, particularly because it's reading more like a report on the organisation's history than a Wikipedia article (stuff like "ESA had set itself in motion to become an annual event." is rather unencylopaedic, for example, and the article lends itself too heavily to routine/minor/insignificant/non-notable details such as "In the weeks following ESA 2012, several forum threads appeared on Speed Demos Archive where viewers and attendees praised the event, discussed what had gone well, what had gone wrong, and speculated whether it could be repeated the following year." while neglecting the news reporting coverage of the events themselves). This is just the opinion of a non-reviewer though, so take it as ye may CiphriusKane (talk) 04:29, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

I am completely fine with you changing up the article. I thought mentioning how the event got to where it is and why it continued to begin with was "relevant". It gives a full picture of why the event became what it is. But I definitely accept that my Wikipedia-article writing skills may not be perfect, and I gladly change the article and learn from it.

However, I have seen multiple articles where history is just listed randomly and no "connection" is told, which personally makes me super uninterested and lost. According to me, the key factors that needs to be told for a full picture is the community originating from SDA, quick information regarding the first event, Lundendi's involvement and splitup from ESA, name change and company creation. I also believe more information regarding how Save the Children and The Alzheimer Foundation became their main affiliated charities could improve the "history" section, but there is no information about this other than when they came into rotation and the information given on The Alzheimer Foundation information page.

I would happily change up the "ESA Today" section. I focused more on the history as that was what I mainly focused my research on. The "what happens off camera" section can probably be said in a single sentence, if mentioned at all (which I think should, as it is also a big "attendance" event).

I will look over the citations again. After 150 citations I can imagine one or two being misplaced. Forscha (talk) 22:24, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Apologies for the delay in replying again (got distracted by, ironically, ESA). I agree that some of the history stuff like Lundendi's involvement is relevant, just it's written in a way that's bad for Wikipedia. It may be that it'll have to start with European Speedster Assembly, and that we'll need to be finding independent secondary sources for them (so this excludes forum posts, statements made by Lundendi and ESA, and interviews). I believe the sources are out there, but they'll probably be in Swedish. This source for example seems to be the best of the lot, though I suspect it'd fall short of significant coverage. I've tried to slim down the history section, which unfortunately has meant removing a lot of excessive details. If ye take a look at Games Done Quick for example, the history section is brief and sourced to extensive coverage. I'm fearing that it may just be a case that ESA's history is just unremarkable, despite how extensive it is, at least in the English news sphere. I'd recommend removing the article from the review queue for the time being CiphriusKane (talk) 04:56, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

The article is listed on the redirect page as a draft to be improved, so I don't think I should remove it from the review queue?[1] Forscha (talk) 05:11, 15 February 2021 (UTC)