Talk:Goliath

Template:AncientEgyptBanner Maybe I'm out of touch or something, but what the hell does Goliath have to do with ancient Egypt?

Goliath's real height!

According to the Dead Sea Scrolls, and some copies of the Greek Septuagint, Goliath was "4 cubits and a span tall." This would make him roughly 6.5 to 7 feet tall. He was a huge man in a day where the average palestinian was 5'5."

I saw that one in a document too. Sounds much more plausible, however this is not a historical article but a mythological article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.78.196.15 (talk • contribs) .

People taller than 250 cm (around 8 feet) have usualy problems with walking. If Goliath really was a warrior, a bigger size would be a real promblem and he would probably be a really weak warrior. Im myselg 6f8i so I know a bit abou tallness. But considering size aroung 7 feet, it would be a huge plus in hand-to-hand combat (look at how succesfull are huge boxers like Klitschko or Valuev). I think we should mention this height for goliath also in the article "famous tall men", my edit was reverted and i was told to look here. --Dudo2 21:43, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Origins of the Goliath Legend

Under careful reading it becomes clear that there is only one traditional battle where "the Goliath," the one we are most familiar with, is slain by David and by David only. Elhanan the son of Jair slew "The brother of Goliath" and not Goliath whom David killed. The famous mistranslation in 2 Sam 21:19 which says, "Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite" is an obvious unintended scribal error. I feel certain it originaly intended to mean "The brother of Goliath" because of the simple fact that "The Brother" is mentioned in the book of 1Chronicles 20:5. Unfortunately the books of Samuel are perhaps some of the poorest copied books of the Bible.

'[In 1Chronicles 20:5]The Hebrew text reads, "Elchanan son of Jair killed Lachmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite." But it is likely that the accusative marker in front of ymjl, "Lachmi," is a corruption of tyb, and that ymjl ta should be emended to ymjlh tyb, "the Bethlehemite." See 2 Sam 21:19.'http://www.bible.org/netbible2/

Goliath and his 4 brothers(cousins), 2 of whose names are mentioned, "Ishbibenob" and "Sippai" along with a six-fingered man, were all descended from "Rapha" of Gath (2Sam 21). Rapha was Undoubtedly descended from the Anakim/Rephaim of whom the OT is full of references to.

Infact, the book of Joshua 11:22 says that the sons of Anak took refuge in Gath when he and Caleb expelled them:

"At that time Joshua attacked and eliminated the Anakites from the hill country31--from Hebron, Debir, Anab, and all the hill country of Judah and Israel.32 Joshua annihilated them and their cities. 11:22 No Anakites were left in Israelite territory, though some remained in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod."

Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod were chief cities of Philistia. Evidently the few remaining Anakim were permitted to ally with the Philistines or whoever controlled those cities during the Conquest of Canaan by Joshua. The Philistines historicaly are believed to have first arrived to the coast of Canaan at around 1200 B.C.

The real question is who were the sons of Anak? Were they legendary or were they a real people? The bible speaks of them like it speaks of all other surrounding nations except that they were "large and tall" and they made Moses's Spies feel like mere locusts in comparison.

There are multiple references to the Anakim in the OT. They were sometimes called Rephaim by the Hebrews, and also Zamzummim and Emim by the Ammonites and Moabites. Og was their northern most leader in his kingdom of Bashan, modern day Syria. So it would seems that these were a physical, real and historical people.

How tall were they? Goliath was either 7 or 9 feet tall depending on the tradition. Og, king of Bashan had a bed (or coffin) of Ironstone that measured some 9 cubits or 13 feet long. An Egyptian slain by One of David's mighty Men (1Chron 11:22) stood 5 cubits or 7.5 ft.

"Pliny mentions that in the reign of Claudius (A.D. 41-54), a nine-foot-nine-inch giant named Gabbaras was brought to Rome from Arabia." http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/Mid.East/Giants.Mid.East6.html

According to Unger's Bible Dictionary, "Skeletons recovered in Palestine attest the fact that men as tall as Goliath once lived in that general region" (p. 419).

The liberal Harper’s Bible Dictionary (1961) p.231) mentions that "recovered skeletons prove that men as tall as Goliath lived in Palestine."

The conservative Wycliffe Bible Dictionary p.709 also says, "Recovered skeletons of equal height from archaeological excavations at Gezer and other sites bear out the unusually tall stature of individuals in ancient Palestine at roughly the same period."

Infact, tall human skeletons of men 6ft-6ft4 inches tall were found and published in "The excavation of Gezer 1902 - 1905 and 1907 - 1909"

Evidently these tall people inspired the myths and legends of the Anakim and Rephaim like Goliath who literaly were giants compared to the Average 5ft men of those times.

Height of the Anakim/Rephaim/Emim/Zamzummim--Goliath's kin

The Bible Background Commentary states ". . .the Egyptian letter on Papyrus Anastasi I (13th century B.C.) describes fierce warriors in Canaan that are seven to nine feet tall. Two female skeletons about seven feet tall from the twelfth century B.C. have been found at Tell es-Sa'ideyeh in Transjordan."

3Walton, John H. "The IVP Bible Background Commentary Genesis-Deuteronomy" Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1997, p. 188 www.bethel-church.com/sermon_notes/ archives/lessons_about_courage.pdf

From the Papyrus Anastasi I, we have the satirical letter between two scribes. The Scribe Hori mentions the lands of Canaan and Syria in detail and tells us of Shasu warriors 4-5 cubits tall living around the carmel ridge:

"The(?) narrow defile is infested(?) with Shosu concealed beneath the bushes; some of them are of four cubits or of five cubits, from head(??) to foot(?), fierce of face, their heart is not mild, and they hearken not to coaxing. Thou art alone, there is no helper(?) with thee, no army behind thee." nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/anastasi_i.htm

The archaeological findings at Tell es-Sa'ideyeh,Jordan by Jonathan Tubb of the British museum from 1985 onward did reveal some extraordinary tall skeletons from the late Bronze age, approx 1100 bc--contemporary with the philistines and other biblical peoples. Some of the Tell es-Sa'ideyeh finds revealed two women between 7 and 7.5 feet in stature-this is certainly gigantic!

Other archaeological findings throughout Palestine have revealed people as tall as 2 meters(6ft6) at Gezer and other sites. So it would seem that there is atleast some actual skeletal evidence that people of very tall stature did exist roughly about the time of the supposed conquest and judges--contemporaneous with the Anakim.

Goliath had Acromegaly?

I think the idea Goliath had this disease is total nonesense. And if he did, it sure wouldn't explain why he was considered a Champion to the Philistines.

No, the truth is Goliath was a big and strong warrior, who was swift and accurate with his spear. The original Dead sea scrolls tell [which contain the oldest story of Goliath] us he was 4 cubits and a span in stature. since a cubit is 18 inches, and a span is half that, Goliath was 81 inches tall, or 6 foot 9. Now if he was 250 or 300 lbs of muscle, Goliath certainly could carry the armor described in ISamuel 17:

-Over 100 lbs of a Bronze cuirass, or chest armor-

-Helmet of Bronze--probably with dyed horse hair to form a crest-

-Bronze shin guards-

-Bronze sword-

-Bronze covered shield-

-Iron tipped spear that weighs 15 lbs-

In all, Goliath probably was carrying with him, about 150 lbs of combined Armor and weapons. Obviously a strong man. And if he was 6 feet 9 inches tall, he would have towered chest and shoulders above average Semetic men of the time who were in the vicinity of 5'5 to 5'6. He was a comparative giant for men of that time period, and even today. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.99.204.51 (talk • contribs) .

I think it is silly to even discuss this. I mean, who would claim that the cyclops lacks this and that gene, causing it to have only one eye? It's mythology. It has giants and other fictional creatures.

It's silly to discuss this if you define mythology as mere fiction. But if mythology is defined as "origins" then verification is of importance. Mind you, the genre in which we find the story of Goliath is not mythological in nature. The genre was written as historical narrative.

Even if the theory has some importance, it shouldn't be couched in the POV language that is used. The author refers to "intriguing medical hypotheses." Hmmm...I guess they failed to intrigue me. IMO, this section is a waste of time, especially the part that implies you'd need to sneak around someone with a sling in order to kill them with it. I'm not arguing to get rid of it just because I didn't like it, but words like "intriguing" are POV in this context and need to go.

Update

The skeletons found at Tell es-Saidiyyeh were not quite the 7 feet that they were first made out to be. There were actually half a dozen skeletons of people unearthed (in the mid-80's) who stood between 1.8 and 2 meters of height, averaging around six feet c. 1100 bc LB III or 4. The tallest of these skeletons belonged to a man who was about 6'5 or 6'6. Evidently this was a solid foot taller than average men of the day.

Biblical translations on Height

Seems that the line More modern biblical translations estimate that in fact he stood at four cubits and a span (6' 6") under the heading Account in the Hebrew Bible is possibly a bit misleading. Though no doubt, there are modern Bible translations using this recorded height, this new height comes from a translation of a "damaged Dead Sea scroll" according to the University of Notre Dame's news site [1] (Which is also the same website noted in the current version of the Goliath article). The Notre Dame News article also seems to indicate that Bible scholars find the Dead Sea Scrolls religious authority possibly contestable. Taking in consideration that Goliath's fame is mostly based on his height, it seems to me these facts should at least be taken into consideration within the Wiki article. Thoughts on this?--Adrift* 03:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Dead Sea Scroll passage you refer to is damaged but, the original intention of 4 1/2 cubits can almost certainly be inferred.

I quote the actual English translated Dead Sea Scrolls from 4QSam(Bracketed text is the damaged or lost portions):

"[Then] a cha[mpion named Goliath, who was from Gath, ca]me out [of the Philistine camp. His height was f]our [cu]bits and a span. [He had a bronze helmet on his head and wore bronze scale-armor--and] the armor weighed [five thousand shekels.]..." --The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: Abegg,Flint, & Ulrich

Of further interest is the fact not only the earliest Greek Septuagint mentions the four cubits, Historian Josephus also agrees with the four 1/2 cubit measurement. The overwhelming evidence indicates that the original core tradition had Goliath at around the 4 1/2 cubit range, and this later grew to 5 1/2, and then 6 1/2 cubits by the time of the Masoretes a thousand years after The DSS and LXX. --71.222.48.14 07:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem seeing the 4 1/2 cubit measurement included in the article as long as it's in reference specifically to the damaged Dead Sea Scrolls and other sources, but it seems better to highlight where the new measurement comes from than to make fairly vague mention of it as a new biblical translation. Just out of curiousity, and not that i doubt you, but can you give links to the septuagint and Josephus measurements that you're referring to? If these are verifiable, i think that it's important to add them to the article as well.--Adrift* 01:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Re:

I agree that there needs to be clear references to the four cubit claim, as Goliath is an important biblical figure in the life and career of David and the account of his height is certainly of interest.

Josephus' Writings-Book 6, CH.9:

"Now there came down a man out of the camp of the Philistines, whose name was Goliath, of the city of Gath, a man of vast bulk, for he was of four cubits and a span in tallness, and had about him weapons suitable to the largeness of his body, for he had a breastplate on that weighed five thousand shekels..." http://www.godrules.net/library/flavius/flaviusb6c9.htm

Search any English translation of the Greek Septuagint and you'll find that they use the same measurement.--71.222.48.14 05:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Awesome. Thank you for the references... that was pretty easy.--Adrift* 02:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Major cultural bias

I didn't flag this with a NPOV tag... yet... but there's a major problem here: specifically, that the article is written with the assumption that Goliath (and David, etc.) was an actual, historical person. While Judeo-Christianity may be the default view of much of the Western world, the historicity of the figure is certainly not proven, and to treat this figure as if it were any more real than the myths of other cultures is a major instance of POV-pushing. The article should be reworded to take this into account. 216.165.144.240 12:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

No Culturual Bias, sorry

This part of the Bible isn't considered to be fictional, even by people who freely admit that much of the OT is mythological in character. You (and others) likely think it's a myth and an obvious one due to the mistranslation of the work which made a giant (9'6 instead of 6'6) out of Goliath.

Goliath is considered as much a historical personage as Buddha, Mohammed, or Alexander the Great. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.115.16.212 (talk) 22:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

Re:

I wouldn't go that far, but the Hebrew texts do atleast give us a general historical setting for Goliath. As for King David, most scholars tend to lean towards his existence, ultimately because there are atleast one or two known references to "The House of David" from the Tel Dan and possibly the Mesha Stele both written within 150 years of his life. Perhaps more can be learned about the historical David if Mazar's palace discovery proves authentic.