Talk:Albert Pierrepoint

BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5035690.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/articles/2006/04/27/pierrepoint_lasthangman_feature.shtml

BBC interview with Pierrepoint: http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/realmedia/features/pierrepoint.ram

Does anyone know where he was born? I have an idea it was in Oldham (Lancs), but have no verification of this. He certainly ran a pub called "Help the Poor Struggler" in Oldham for many years before "retiring" to Southport (Lancs) where he had a number of part-time jobs.

82.0.51.190: thanks for making that change of Harry Corbett to James Corbitt -- I had visions of our Albert hanging Sooty! Arwel

Article on Albert from the Southport Visiter (sic) - text removed from this talk page because it's © Trinity Mirror Plc. -- Arwel 09:43, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If an execution paid £15, would be interesting to know what Pierrepoint's "day job" was. knoodelhed 18:37, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

He kept a pub. £15 in 1955 wasn't bad money - considerably more than the average weekly wage, and allowing for inflation it would be equivalent to about £250 today. (House of Commons Library paper 03/82). -- Arwel 22:38, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Although not necessarily a particularly accurate source, the film Pierrepoint mentions him being some sort of delivery man/driver several times, until he opened his pub. ConDe m^Talk 10:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The bit about "delivery driver" is correct; Pierrepoint says so himself in his autobiography. --Kauko56 13:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

black humour

There seems to be just a little too much of it in this article. In particular referring to those executed as his 'clients' or is this some sort of standard terminology? Gurkha 22:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering about this myself - client doesn't really seem the best term to use, unless it is one which is often used in British executions... Does anyone know? ConDe m^Talk 10:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's a euphemism but not an uncommon one. See http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,1748084,00.html Idiomatically it's typically British. I wouldn't call it humour so much, just the way that us Brits refer to some things obliquely. Jooler 08:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC) (leter: similar usage here http://www.oldhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/209/209590_oldham_drinkers_were_hanging_on_alberts_every_word.html - I don't know whether Pierrepoint himself used the term, but I suspect he did) Jooler 08:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Structure

I think the article is great. I've just changes the structure a bit by moving some stuff about and putting headings in. I have removed very very little. Wright123 16:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Chief Executioner"

I've had to do a slight edit as it appears that someone was a little confused at the two different usages of the term "Chief Executioner" - there's the title of Chief Executioner as in "Chief Executioner of the United Kingdom", and the role of Chief Executioner, i.e. the person who was in charge of conducting the execution - calculating the drop, hooding the condemned, putting the noose around the neck, and pulling the lever to open the trap; Antonio Mancini's in 1941 was the first execution where Albert played this role, previously he was an Assistant Executioner, responsible for pinioning the condemned's legs with a belt so he couldn't try to save himself from the drop. Executions in England normally had at least one Assistant Executioner (and sometimes as many as three, as new applicants for the job were tried out to see if they had the stomach for it), but in Scotland and Ireland there was not normally an assistant (the authorities would have had to pay his fees, and they were loath to do this!). In England, it was normally the under-sheriff of the county concerned who hired the Chief Executioner, while the prison governor hired the assistant. -- Arwel (talk) 00:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

US soldiers

Could someone explain how he happened to execute 16 US soldiers? What had they done? --Trovatore 18:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to say desertion most likely, but a quick check discovers that only one US soldier was executed for desertion in WWII, one Eddie Slovik and he was executed by firing squad in France. So I guess they would most likely be cases of rape and murder. Jooler 01:00, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After a brief hunt for info I discovered this page [1] and discovered that according to this document there were 18 US soldiers executed in England during WWII "Of the 18, nine were convicted of murder, six of rape, and three of both." - Apparently under the Visiting Forces Act 1942 gave the US military in Britain the right to try their servicemen for capital offences and included rape as a capital crime even though it wasn't a capital crime in Britain at the time. Jooler 01:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We need to change the article - Albert was only assistant executioner at 6 executions at Shepton Mallet - it was Tom who was the chief executioner at all the American executions. The Steve Fielding book says that Albert was disturbed by the length of time the condemned spent in the executioners' company at the American hangings - in a normal British execution they'd be dead in within 10 - 60 seconds, but the Americans were stood on the trap and then had to wait for about five minutes while the charge was read, sentence spelt out, and the prisoner asked for any last statement.

The Shepton Mallet executions were:

12-03-1943 David Cobb, Albert assisting.

23-06-1943 Harold Smith, Albert assisting.

14-12-1943 Lee Davis, Alex Riley assisting.

16-02-1944 John H Waters, Alex Riley assisting.

16-05-1944 John C. Leatherberry, Albert assisting.

26-05-1944 Wiley Harris, Alex Riley assisting.

11-08-1944 Eliga Brinson, Alex Riley assisting.

11-08-1944 Willie Smith, Alex Riley assisting.

12-10-1944 Thomas Madison, Albert assisting

08-01-1945 Ernest Lee Clark, Albert assisting.

08-01-1945 Augustine Guerra, Albert assisting.

17-05-1945 Robert Pearson, Herbert Morris assisting.

17-05-1945 Cubia Jones, Herbert Morris assisting.

07-04-1945 William Harrison, Herbert Morris assisting.

08-05-1945 George B. Smith, Herbert Morris assisting.

15-06-1945 Aniceto Martinez, Herbert Morris assisting. -- Arwel (talk) 02:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Any idea about the two extra executions claimed by the document I quoted above? Jooler 02:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all sure. There may have been some executions before then, conducted by American hangmen, which didn't go too well which is why the UK government insisted that a British hangman be employed, using British procedures. The American method of hanging was to use a standard 5-foot drop which did not ensure the breaking of the neck and instant death; the British method was the long drop of between 5' (for 200 lbs clients) and 8' 6" (for clients of 118 lbs or less). I have reservations about the total accuracy of the Fielding book, as in the lists of Thomas' executions Albert is listed as the assistant at the 11-08-1944 executions, but they don't appear in the list of Albert's executions. Perplexing! -- Arwel (talk) 15:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just found this page [2] and the mystery is solved. The other two were shot by firing squad.

So we have (perhaps some discrepencies in bold) -

12-03-1943 David Cobb - murder of Lieutenant Robert Cobner. (executioner Tom assisted by Albert)

25-06-1943 Harold Smith - murder of Pte. Harry Jenkins. (executioner Tom assisted by Albert)

14-12-1943 Lee A. Davis - murder of Cynthia Lay, rape of Muriel Fawden (executioner Tom assisted by Albert)

10-02-1944 John H Waters - murder of Doris Staples (executioner Tom)

16-03-1944 John C. Leatherberry - murder of Henry Hailstone (executioner Tom)

26-05-1944 Wiley Harris - murder of Harry Coogan (executioner Tom)

30-05-1944 Alex Miranda - murder of Sgt. Thomas Evison (exectuion by firing squad)

11-08-1944 Eliga Brinson, rape of Dorothy Holmes (executioner Albert)

11-08-1944 Willie Smith, rape of Dorothy Holmes (executioner Albert)

12-10-1944 Madison Thomas - rape of Beatrice Reynolds (executioner Albert)

28-11-1944 Benjamin Pyegate - murder of James Alexander (execution by firing squad)

08-01-1945 Ernest Lee Clark - rape and murder of Elizabeth Green (executioner Tom)

08-01-1945 Augustine Guerra - rape and murder of Elizabeth Green (executioner Tom)

17-03-1945 Robert Pearson - rape of Joyce Brown (executioner Tom)

17-03-1945 Parson Jones - rape of Joyce Brown (executioner Tom)

07-04-1945 William Harrison, sexual assault and murder of Patricia Wylie (executioner Tom)

08-05-1945 George B. Smith - murder of Sir Eric Teichman (wife of victim stated as Lady Teichman so he might have been a baronet rather than a knight) - execution was on V.E. Day. (executioner Tom)

15-06-1945 Aniceto Martinez rape of Agnes Cope (executioner Tom)

Jooler 16:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This could make quite an interesting article actually. Jooler 22:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

cause of death

OK, a little off-topic here, but there seem to be lots of references to this nonsense idea that breaking the neck causes instant death. Breaking the neck causes instant paralysis, that's all. The guy still strangles. He just can't kick and squirm to convey his suffering to observers. --Trovatore 15:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well according to http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/hanging2.html#causes on a long drop - Death is still ultimately caused by asphyxia [brain dead usually after around 6 minutes] but the condemned person is deeply unconscious at the time due to dislocation of the cervical vertebrae and the crushing and/or separation of the spinal cord. Jooler 22:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any evidence for this at all? I can't think of any reason separation of the spinal cord should cause unconsciousness. There are well-attested reports of severed heads exhibiting signs of consciousness after guillotining. I also note that the condemned man's head is traditionally covered in a hanging, which would make it impossible to see these signs. --Trovatore 22:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well attested? Well there is a story about Lavoisier- but it's a myth and according to Guillotine#Living_head the anecdotal evidence for the claim can not be confirmed. Jooler 23:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even if that's so, I still see no reason at all why severing the spinal cord should cause unconsciousness. Is there any evidence that it does? --Trovatore 23:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno Google it, like I just did. Jooler 23:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently you found no such evidence, or you'd have mentioned it. Your link to Lavoisier led me to this Straight Dope column, in which a Dr. Fink observes that people "have remained alert after having their spinal cords severed".

I think in the absence of countervailing evidence, the default conclusion is clear: Severing the spinal cord does not cause unconsciousness, per se. A hanged person most likely remains conscious until hypoxia takes over (though it's conceivable he might be stunned by the concussion, but this is hardly "deep unconsciousness"). --Trovatore 23:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No I got bored of doing your searches for you. I don't find the comment for "Dr Fink" conclusive (no supporting instances described), certainly not in the case of hanging as opposed to decapitation. But what do I know? If you read the rest of the article that I put at the top of this section you will see that it suggests that a measured drop execution "properly carried out" has been observed to lead to apparent unconciousness (you suggest this is merely paralysis) in several studies. It asserts that the suggestion that it "causes instantaneous loss of consciousness, seems highly probable" and concludes with - "Carried out carefully and humanely, using an accurately measured drop and modern noose, hanging is possibly the least cruel way to execute a criminal.". BTW I'm not in favour of capital punishment in any form. Jooler 02:00, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My impression is that the author of that article is an advocate of capital punishment, and specifically of hanging. He does not adduce the slightest evidence in favor of his claim that hanging causes instant unconsciousness. I don't think he has any. --Trovatore 02:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well you're right in at least one respect in that he does indeed appear to be an advocate of capital punishment. He's quite open about his views on this page http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/thoughts.html Jooler 03:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Statistics

Is the statistics section really neccessary; it makes thar article look abit busy. Wright123 19:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I meant to comment on that, you have to scroll a huge amount to the left. I briefly tried to fix it but couldn't get the layout right. Jooler 22:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So can we remove it from the article and just put it in the talk page. It's great that someone took the time to do it but, until it can be made into a more 'concise' chart, it doesnt look right in the article.

Depends on your font size, of course, but I've no objection to moving it. Maybe to Locations of executions conducted by Albert Pierrepoint? -- Arwel (talk) 14:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I support that idea. Shall we leave it for 5 days so that people can object to it they don't agree? Wright123 16:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MovedWright123 18:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Biography

The Biography section is now quite large. I don't think that any of it needs getting rid of. But, i do think that it would be a good idea to split it up a bit more. I would do it, but im not an expert on Albert. Thanks Wright123 19:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How come A. Pierrepoint could not claim to be unapplicaple for hanging of James Corbitt ??

Surely if a hangman discovered that the person he was supposed to hang was a friend of his there should have been the possibility for him to declare himself as too involved to perform the execution? Maybe this possibility existed but Albert decided against it ? 89.8.39.9 00:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Answers: (a) Pierrepoint did not know that the man about to be executed was his customer "Tish" until a prison warden, on the day before the execution, told him so. At that moment it would have been a bit troublesome to withdraw from the job: The authorities would have either have had to find a replacement executioner at the shortest possible notice, or to stay the execution until someone had been found.

(b) Pierrepoint always said that Corbitt was not a "friend", just a customer of his pub whom he knew by his nickname only.

(c) Pierrepoint was in the habit of saying that when he entered the condemned cell, it was not Albert Pierrepoint who came in but the arm of the law. He was obviously able, to a high degree, to block out all his personal feelings. Call it artificial schizophrenia, if you like.

(d) I think I read somewhere that an executioner who declined to do a specific job - except when he was unavailable because employed at the same time elsewhere - risked his standing with the authorities.--Kauko56 10:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ad (d): it was Syd Dernley, who wrote in his book, that declining a job could lead to withrawal from the list of executioners. Jonny1044