Talk:Berliet T100
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Complying_with_Wikipedia_Manual_of_Style
[edit]_-_Fondation_Marius_Berliet,_octobre_2018.jpg)
@Mr.choppers I am requesting dispute resolution because I believe you are not complying with the intent of the Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Units_of_measurement on this page and on Talk:Nissan_S30#Complying_with_Wikipedia_Manual_of_Style_for_a_Japanese_Car. I have listed @Stepho on the request because he was involved in the online discussion. Avi8tor (talk) 06:44, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lovely. As I have explained, the correct unit to lead with is "the units conventionally used to discuss the topic in reliable sources." Show me a single reliable source that refers to this as a 441kW truck rather than 600ch. And have a look at the grille of the 700ch Berliet T100. Mr.choppers | ✎ 17:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- I believe @Mr.choppers: is confusing metric (horsepower) with the SI (System International). The manual of Style states: In all other articles, the primary units chosen will be SI units, non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.). PS might stand for Horsepower in German, worked out using the metric system, but it's not an SI unit Non-SI_units_mentioned_in_the_SI. Therefore on a French car it should be SI as the lead unit, never mind what they used historically. The same applies to a Japanese vehicle. Avi8tor (talk) 13:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- I am not confusing anything. Japan used metric horsepower until very recently (and they even abbreviate it PS for some reason), and so did France. So do all sources for this truck that I can find. It is simply the conventional unit used to describe older metric vehicles. I have posted an image of the grille of the truck, does that badge not mean anything at all? Have you followed up any of the sources? You have never responded to anything I have said, but just keep saying "kW is SI" over and over again. "Rpm" is not SI, but we still use that notation because it is the conventional unit used. Mr.choppers | ✎ 18:12, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- As I'm sure you know, metric is a system of measurement based on decimals, the metric system is updated and although commonly called metric, its official title is the System International which has symbols not abbreviations[1]. RPM is an abbreviation for revolutions per minute (RPM's is not valid as it's per one minute not many). PS[2] is the German abbreviation for horsepower and how it's calculated and is not an SI unit, neither is hp or bhp. As Stepho has eloquently noted, we don't use archaic units when modern readers may be unfamiliar with them, hence the SI primary and the non SI secondary. The MOS specifically states that for metric countries or for scientific articles the SI unit come first, whether they used cubits or livre in the source material. As Stepho pointed out, the 600 CV is a designation, the actual power might be 598 and they round it out for marketing. Another bit of trivia, Japan changed to using metric units during the second world war, before that they had their own units, not imperial nor metric. Every country on the planet has now adopted the metric or SI system, even the US where it's use is voluntary, but by law it's the preferred system of measurement. Avi8tor (talk) 13:53, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- All metric nations used horsepower until the full SI began to take effect in the 1970s; Japan did not adopt kW until after 2000. Since you didn't respond to anything directly, here is the quote from MOS again:
...the primary units chosen will be SI units, non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.).
- In SI, rpm is supposed to be abbreviated min-1, but we do not use that because it is not conventionally used for the topic. If PS is conventionally used rather than kW, or hands rather than mm, then using that unit is proper and correct. I agree that the Berliet's output is probably not precisely 600ch; but this actually further undermines your case: for nominal units (such as the 2 by 4) WP:MOS also prescribes using the units applied in the name.
- Lastly, I am not the one who chose to use "PS" as the abbreviation for metric horsepower, but we seem to be stuck with it. Mr.choppers | ✎ 18:08, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think you are misconstruing the intent of the manual of style. The intent, is to place SI primary in every country other than the USA for cars as it's the internationally accepted unit of power. If you reference a UK motoring magazine it's more likely to have horsepower, but go to South Africa or Australia/New Zealand it's more likely to be kW. It seems to me that you are twisting the common use of PS in European publications to argue that is the commonly used unit, in Europe maybe, but not in other English language countries (never mind the non English language countries that read the English Wikipedia) they use kW [3]. Wikipedia is read worldwide, which is why the manual of style states use the units in the order given in the MOS, i.e. kW PS hp. The System International is a measurement language for everyone, everywhere. Avi8tor (talk) 17:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think this is pretty clear, no need to misconstrue it:
...the primary units chosen will be SI units, non-SI units officially accepted for use with the SI, or such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic (such as revolutions per minute (rpm) for rotational speed, hands for heights of horses, etc.).
- While Australia and ZA have switched fairly completely to SI units, they, too, keep using horsepower when discussing old cars. Here is the first South African classic car magazine I found, I randomly picked September 2018 and counted: five articles used horsepower only, two used kW, and one uses hp (kW). Clearly kW is not universal yet by any stretch. As for the rest of the world (and en.wp is pretty much global) horsepower still reigns in most popular discussions. Korean manufacturers still use PS, Japanese manufacturers switched only very recently. I recommend checking out a few Wiki entries in other languages such as French or German or Spanish or anything you care to look at: horsepower dominates, particularly when pre-2000s cars are covered. Wikipedia does not really have a prescriptive duty to metrify the world, we are compilers of information. If all of those reliable modern sources use PS or hp, then that is the units that are conventionally used. France, whether in the 1950s or today, still prefers to use chevaux, no matter what the legal documents might say. Mr.choppers | ✎ 21:20, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry about the delay in replying, I have another life. The way I read this entry in the MOS is as written, SI units first (kW) non SI units after that (PS or HP), or such other units, which really refers to things like hands (measurement) on horses as the example states, but for horses this would still be written cm, hands. It does not say in the MOS that "such other units as are conventional in reliable-source discussions of the article topic" are primary over the SI except in the USA. The text is "The main unit in which a quantity is expressed should generally be an SI unit or non-SI unit officially accepted for use with the SI". This sentence ends with a period/full stop. Neither Horsepower nor PS is officially accepted for use with the SI therefore the SI unit is primary regardless of what unit is in the documentation. I think your insistence on PS is a preference of yours, but it's not what is stated in the MOS. Avi8tor (talk) 13:55, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think this is pretty clear, no need to misconstrue it:
- I think you are misconstruing the intent of the manual of style. The intent, is to place SI primary in every country other than the USA for cars as it's the internationally accepted unit of power. If you reference a UK motoring magazine it's more likely to have horsepower, but go to South Africa or Australia/New Zealand it's more likely to be kW. It seems to me that you are twisting the common use of PS in European publications to argue that is the commonly used unit, in Europe maybe, but not in other English language countries (never mind the non English language countries that read the English Wikipedia) they use kW [3]. Wikipedia is read worldwide, which is why the manual of style states use the units in the order given in the MOS, i.e. kW PS hp. The System International is a measurement language for everyone, everywhere. Avi8tor (talk) 17:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- All metric nations used horsepower until the full SI began to take effect in the 1970s; Japan did not adopt kW until after 2000. Since you didn't respond to anything directly, here is the quote from MOS again:
- As I'm sure you know, metric is a system of measurement based on decimals, the metric system is updated and although commonly called metric, its official title is the System International which has symbols not abbreviations[1]. RPM is an abbreviation for revolutions per minute (RPM's is not valid as it's per one minute not many). PS[2] is the German abbreviation for horsepower and how it's calculated and is not an SI unit, neither is hp or bhp. As Stepho has eloquently noted, we don't use archaic units when modern readers may be unfamiliar with them, hence the SI primary and the non SI secondary. The MOS specifically states that for metric countries or for scientific articles the SI unit come first, whether they used cubits or livre in the source material. As Stepho pointed out, the 600 CV is a designation, the actual power might be 598 and they round it out for marketing. Another bit of trivia, Japan changed to using metric units during the second world war, before that they had their own units, not imperial nor metric. Every country on the planet has now adopted the metric or SI system, even the US where it's use is voluntary, but by law it's the preferred system of measurement. Avi8tor (talk) 13:53, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://www.bipm.org/en/publications/si-brochure/
- ^ Horsepower#Deutsches_Institut_für_Normung_70020_(DIN_70020)
- ^ http://www.motorsa.co.za/newcomers-issue-56/