Talk:Metafiction

Question

Would the following passage from Huck Finn be considered metafictional?

You don't know about me without you have read a book by the name of The Adventures of Tom Sawyer; :but that ain't no matter. That book was made by Mr. Mark Twain, and he told the truth, mainly.

There was things which he stretched, but mainly he told the truth.

--Savethemooses 22:05, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looks it to me. Scix 02:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discworld

Some of Terry Pratchett's Discworld stuff probably belongs here: Witches Abroad seems like a good choice. And a case could be made for Don Quixote. Opinions? Vicki Rosenzweig 01:38, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's been quite a while since I've read any Pratchett, so I'm not sure. I think Don Quixote is not self-conscious enough to count as metafiction, though. The Pratchett novel I know best is Good Omens, which has enough metafictional parts that I wouldn't be surprised.

Pratchett should definitely be in here; "Narrativium" is an elemental particle in the Discworld, and his "The Science of Discworld" series with Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen features our world as a magical creation within the Discworld, which the characters travel to and experiment with. PhilHibbs | talk 12:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Witches Abroad

Ahh, I just found a site here with a little summary of Witches Abroad--"The sheer power of the Story" sounds very metafictional to me. If the Story (as a capitalized concept) plays a major role in the novel, then add it, by all means. Thirdreel 16:27, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I was thinking of Witches Abroad also, but I thought it probably wasn't appropriate. The reason is that while one of the characters is driven by an attempt to make life work like it does in a story, the protagonists are driven by exactly the opposite - i.e. by an insistence that life should be lifelike, and that making it storylike is a manipulation of people. If anything I would say its anti-metafiction.

Hamlet

While we're on the subject, Hamlet? Sure Hamlet has a strong sense of destiny, but is that enough to class it as metafiction? Many people in real life have a strong sense of destiny. I can't think of anything in Hamlet designed to remind the reader that they are watching a work of fiction (Now Rozencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead, that's another story - if you'll pardon the expression).

I consider Hamlet to have a metafictional element in the Hamlet's use of the play "The Murder of Gonzago", which mirrors Claudius's own supposed crime, in attempt to prick Claudius's conscience. --FOo

I see your point. Aren't there some stronger examples though? The play-within-a-play doesn't, for me, call attention to the fictional nature of the story; at least not nearly as much as Adapation or The Princess Bride (the book rather than the movie by the way). Again I would think that Rosencrantz and Guildenstern is a better example. DJ Clayworth 13:33, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)

If the presence of a play-within-a-play identified metafiction (it doesn't, because The Murder of Gonzago is 'happening' within the fiction, right there at the Danish court) then the rustics' play in A Midsummer Night's Dream would be a metafiction too (but it's not). The Chorus' address to the audience in Henry V is more metafictional. Metafictions 'break the spell.' An author's aside to the reader, as in Fielding or Thackeray, manipulates the situation, but from outside the fiction. User:Wetman..

I'm going to pull Hamlet from the list for a number of reasons. While it has metafctional elements, it's not in itself a work of metafiction. It doesn't have the self-consciousness present in most metafiction. For instance, Breakfast of Champions is, at its heart, a book about Vonnegut's writerly persona; Hamlet is not a play about Shakespeare (except in some convoluted modern reading.) A lot of metafiction is "writing a book about writing a book." There's no way to summarize House of Leaves, for instance, without mentioning that it is a book about someone writing a book about someone who wrote a book about someone who made a movie. No one, however, would summarize Hamlet as "a play about someone performing a play." The metafictional elements are incidental to the plot.

Most of all, I'm going to pull it because of the intention of the list. If someone asked me, "What is metafiction?" I would suggest they read certain texts to get a feel for the literary movement. Calvino, certainly. Alameddine, certainly. Shakespeare, no. If I was trying to get a feel for metafictional theatre, I'd suggest something more like Pirandello's Six Characters in Search of an Author. Thirdreel 11:54, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hamlet together with Don Quixote are two of the most remarked examples of metafiction in scholarship. Not only the play-inside-the-play thing (which is enough by itself) but all the questions he rises about acting and theatre. Why should the actor cry about Hecuba, who is Hecuba for him (remember?). The monologue mourning the death of the actor, where he takes his skull, is maybe the second most known one after the "to be or not to be" one. Midsummer Night Dream is indeed metafictional, so are most Shakespear's plays, an so is all Barroque literature. Jorge Luis Borges argues that Don Quixote and Hamlet make as wonder if we, ourselves, are not fictional charachter being read or watched. Of course, Pirandello is more explicite, but Hamlet it's a must in such a list. See [literawiki on metafiction]--Rataube 13:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of metafiction

I'm becoming concerned that this article is being taken over by this growing list of metafictional novels. I think we should cull the list now and move all but the best entries over to List of Metafictional Novels or just delete them. If we were to delete them there would be the possibility of creating a category for metafictional novels which would create a list of the existing books which would be easier to maintain.

Any thoughts about this?

Well I went ahead and moved all the examples to List of metafictional texts. Some of the examples should probably be moved back but no more than five of the best. --Kevin 19:23, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

Mise en abyme

There's a counterpart of english-american metafiction in France, which calls itself "mise en abyme" (ofcourse as you already know). So, what's the diference? It's one of the crucial aspect of postmodernist fictional evolution, isn't it... Some low-costed theorists indiferently group them terming "embedding" or self-reference. Godel's already self-reference, no less than Hegel, everything interesting in any symbolism. There is certain diference. For example, as English fiction focuses on personae (Faulkner is extreme in this sense), French one picks up some concrete medial objects (journal, lettre, &c.) when embedding. Shakespeare was no doubt one of the original models for French medial embedding scheme, though the intentionality is parallel to metafiction. That causes alternative reading effects.

Third approach may be sought in minor fictions like of Philip K. Dick. (Not that academic VALIS! Ubik, Flow my tears,... are neither personal nor medial, for exemple. They also are great metafictional art work.)

--NoirNoir 06:47, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Proust?

Would In Search of Lost Time be considered metafictional? --Tothebarricades 01:25, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Odds are good. Scix 02:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A contradiction

The definition of "metafictional" in Metafiction (A) contradicts the definition in Fictional fictional character (B). Anthony Appleyard 06:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC):-[reply]

(A) Metafiction is a kind of fiction which self-consciously addresses the devices of fiction. Some common metafictive devices include:-
- (1) A novel about a person writing a novel.
- (2) A novel about a person reading a novel.
- (3) A story that addresses the specific conventions of story, such as title, paragraphing or plots.
- (4) A non-linear novel, which can be read in some order other than beginning to end.
- (5) Narrative footnotes, which continue the story while commenting on it.
- (6) A novel in which the author is a character.
- (7) A story that anticipates the reader's reaction to the story.
- (8) Characters who do things because those actions are what they would expect from characters in a story.
- (9) Characters who express awareness that they are in a work of fiction.

(B) Something is metafictional if:
- It only exists in the fictional world of a story.
- That story was written within another fictional world and its text (or movie reels or whatever) does not exist in full in our world.

A notable example is Captain Proton, which is meta-fictional within the Star Trek fictional scenario.
Anthony Appleyard 07:25, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My (= Anthony Appleyard 07:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)) guesses are:-[reply]

(1) A novel X about a person writing a novel Y.
(2) A novel X about a person reading a novel Y.
- In both cases, the story Y exists in the world of story X. Y is metafiction if definition (B) above is satisfied.
(3) A story X that addresses the specific conventions of story, such as title, paragraphing or plots.
- Only if a specific story Y exists in the world of story X.
(4) A non-linear novel, which can be read in some order other than beginning to end.
- No.
(5) Narrative footnotes, which continue the story while commenting on it.
- No.
(6) A novel in which the author is a character.
- No. This mostly means that the "I" character is not involved in the common story writer's dilemma between having to keep repeating names and making pronoun reference ambiguities.
(7) A story that anticipates the reader's reaction to the story.
- This seems to be includable in (5). Example please?
(8) Characters who do things because those actions are what they would expect from characters in a story.
- Example please?
(9) Characters who express awareness that they are in a work of fiction.
- Example please?

Anthony Appleyard 07:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think all of these can be reasonably argued to be "metafiction". I have had a go at the language on both pages, and removed the link to this talk page. — PhilHibbs | talk 13:45, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(4): If e.g. a story X contains a note "If you don't want to read through all the space battle, skip from here to chapter 11.", that would satisfy definition (4): but how would that make the story metafiction? Anthony Appleyard 15:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
(5): Example please. Much of the text in a story could be treated as commenting on previous parts of the text of the story. Anthony Appleyard 15:41, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
(6): "A novel in which the author is a character." can have two meanings:-
- (i): For example, I wrote a long Transformers story at this link where (in its early episodes) Optimus Prime is "I", but how does that make the story metafictional?
- (ii): I am Anthony Appleyard. If I wrote a story that Anthony Appleyard was a commando frogman and describing heroic exploits, that would involve me as a character; it would be untruth, but how would it be metafiction?
(7): The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe contains a sentence saying that "If I [= the author] describe these monsters in detail, your parents would probably not let you read this book."; this seems to satisfy definition (7), but how is it metafiction?

Anthony Appleyard 15:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Some newspaper comic strips, including "Arlo and Janis" and "Foxtrot" have had metafictional elements. In one example, Arlo, speaking for the comic strip writer, asked the readers to vote on Janis' new hairdo.

Greek Chorus

Does a Greek Chorus count as meta? Scix 02:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Fourth Wall

Are some of these examples not actually meta fiction (A fiction about fiction or a fiction within fiction) but rather breaking the fourth wall? The fourth wall referring to the outside world, the readers world compared to the fictional. Or to put it in a new way, is meta fiction (meta = above btw) including all definitions, including fourth wall breaking (referring to the reader's world) and actually meta (being beyond the pale of fiction but not necessarily hinting into the reader's world but rather commenting on it without calling it out).

Reading the SG1 example made me think of that, as its a clear example of breaking the fourth wall but it really doesn't show any insight into the real world.

Zanduar 05:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]