Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Slovenian vs Slovene)/Archive 5
Leaving this aside, as I can find many notable organizations that use either Slovene or Slovenian both as an adjective and a noun and some use Slovenian as an adjective and Slovene as a noun, I am now nevertheless more in favor of Slovenian both as an adjective and a noun, after having found two interesting and independent web pages.
- The first one is a paper written by a very prominent Slovenian Canadian scholar and professor emeritus Edward Gobetz. It is available here and clearly shows why Slovenian is the preferred term.
- The second one sufficiently well demonstrates why Google is not reliable in regards to this matter, although one should check these things independently as there are also some misinformations. Nevertheless, although the results are inconclusive, one could probably more reliably show that Google has more content-specific hits for Slovenian than for Slovene. It is available here. As to the number of pages that offer Slovene as a noun, be careful, as there may be many others that use Slovenian as a noun.
So, XJaM, could you too now - after I have presented these arguments - agree with us that Slovenian is the correct term or at least that it should be preferentially used? --Eleassar777
my talk 19:27, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- No, sorry I still can not. But not because that I might be stubborn, but simply because all arguments that were presented here for using 'Slovenian' instead of "Slovene" did not persuade me. Saying that etymology is not relevant, that learning English language in Slovenia is not relevant and so on is one-sided point of view. The only argument worth investigating for me was Nohat's about how these two words came into English dictionaries and perhaps to literature. We all know, yes, that English language is a living thing, but how it can change so rapidly in these 10-20 years. BTW U.S. ambassador in Slovenia uses "Slovenian". We should further ask some Anglicists because discussions in this level are just not enough. You're getting your arguments from sleeves and you are thinking that they are valid all over. I guess that in these three years I have the largest number of contributions from Slovene users. Just because of these tottering statements I shall be forced to stop writing for English Wikipedia. --xJaM 14:09, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I like you to be stubborn. I have been thinking much about these things and have already before agreed that authorities are important, under one condition: that their views are presented clearly and verifiably. I also have not said that etymology is not important. I only said that it is not very important which one of the terms appeared earlier, but how it came into use and how it developed subsequently. If you have read the links I provided you would see that it is not only 10 - 20 years, but at least! from 1949 since Slovenian has been advocated by respected scholars and as I already said it would be more easier to demonstrate Slovenian is preferred nowadays. And if you would go to NUK and read Zarja (November, 1949), you would probably find out that Slovenian has been used and advocated from much earlier. Although this is not certain, the majority seems to follow this nowadays. Also tell me, who was then if not me that suggested asking an etymologist here on WP and I even provided an etymological paper. However, if you can point me to a paper where Mr Košuta presented his arguments for using Slovene clearly, I will read them with interest and respect his opinion, otherwise it's impossible to judge them.
You know, after your last post I am wondering what do you mean by saying that I am getting my arguments from sleeves?
Mr Gobetz and other scholars he mentions are not from sleeves, are they? As we can read on the page I provided, he himself "is professor emeritus of sociology at Kent State University and executive director of The Slovenian Research Center of America, Inc. He is an author or editor of sixteen books (with additional volumes now in print) and of scores of articles and book reviews which have been published in American and international scholarly journals and popular magazines. For many years, he was also a contributor to most Slovenian American newspapers and to several papers in other countries. He has lectured widely at scholarly conferences and has been much in demand as speaker for various Slovenian affairs in several American states, as well as in Canada." And his paper is very well and fairly written and quite well supported. If you would re-read it and would forgot your history here for a moment, it would help much. As for Google, I still believe it is true what I wrote - it is not very reliable, but probably it would be easier to demonstrate it has more hits for Slovenian and Slovenians than Slovene and Slovenes.
To the contrary, I find the claims you made till now quite unsupported, although it is possible that I have missed some of your arguments. You have been mentioning Mr Wales - he is not an authority as he is not an etymologist (as far as I know). You have been telling us to ask Slovenian children - do they or their teachers know better than respected scholars? Of course not. I asked my niece today and she doesn't have a slightest idea although otherwise she has very good grades. Nevertheless, I am open to new arguments you would present and would be especially happy if you presented any respected papers that oppose to Mr Gobetz.
As to one-sidedness, please note that if my arguments are one-sided, they nevertheless seem to be strong. Also note that the two lists that had been added above and their titles were later rewritten by BT2 as I had made them purposefully neutral and had added absolutely no link. There were only titles (different than now - neutral) and blank lines. I was naive expecting that everyone will add links under both titles. Therefore, I have removed them now so that you won't be able to say I am not playing a fair game. As I have already said and also written below, these notable pages don't matter much, if anything, as long as we do not have complete numbered lists of pages that use Slovene only, those that use Slovenian only and those that use Slovenian as an adjective and Slovene as a noun.
And also note, I have not yet said what Wikimedia should use preferentially or what Wikimedia's policy should be towards these questions.
Please rethink this - especially what is on this page (last version edited by me - probably this) - with cool head and carefully, whatever point you may choose to defend in the future. --Eleassar777 my talk 17:45, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)