Talk:RuBee

Inaccuracies

I don't know specific details RuBee implementation, but the discussion about "How RuBee Works" section is filled with electromagnetics that is either sloppy or incorrect. I propose a couple of corrections here to make this more accurate:

• LF transmission occurs antennas that emit electromagnetic energy, which is a combination of both magnetic (H) and electric (E) fields. The wavelength of a 125 KHz RF signal is 2.4 Km, which much longer than the 3m to 30m operational range of these devices; the data is therefore being transmitted in the near field, where magnetic (rather than electromagnetic) coupling dominates.
• Magnetic fields be distorted by ferromagnetic rocks

--Lurgyman63 18:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for comments

The reason magnetic field dominates has more to do with length of the antenna - you are correct that it is near field but E can be very strong in near field with any HF or UHF systems - if you have an antenna that is 1/10 or less E goes down and H starts to win ...

Someone futz with this article - I have only IP address -

I will continue to update this page - I am Chair of 1902.1 IEEE workgroup. and chairman of Visible Assets - All of what is in this article is verifiable - thanks John Stevens

I have added brief discussion of near field - and explained tuning issues thanks for interest

Jkmstevens 11:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a 20 ton injection molding mach. that has been tuned to 131Khz with the loop antenna - can read tags inside the mach. - this is not in article since might be considered OR

I don't know yet where to report, but the physical part of the article is, excuse me, a pile of crap. I'd like some professional physicists to take a look and either remove this article totally, or, if it does have a meaningful content, fix the "explanation" part, eliminating all the cute nonsense. Vlad Patryshev 03:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Vlad - I am the Chair of 1902.1 - I am also a physicists (PhD, Penn 1974) be specfic with regard your criticisms - The cute "nonsense" has helped a lot people who are non-physicist understand complex issues. Think can deal with specifics - like the resonant frequency of ??? is really ??? .

I referenced solid items and documented each - I have received many complaints re your edits from IEEE members and many others - unless your specific about issues -- all changes you have been made will be reversed.

Thanks John Stevens —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkmstevens (talk • contribs) 13:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

New Changes and Expert

After discussions with admins at Wiki I have reverted the article back to older version

1. I have tightened Tone in How RuBee works sections - only serious issue..

2. As per Wiki rules this article contains no Original Research and is verifiable - you want to challange that you must be specific - and do it here in talk for changes to stay ..... I will respond within 72 hours.

3. I am a Ph.D. in Biophysics and an expert in this area - I have taught many graduate physics courses at several well known Universities - this article has been reviewed by two other physics experts. Its language is intentionally simple - it is not ment to be overly technical - However it is accurate and verifiable.

If you are an administrator please identify yourself here in "talk" before you make any additional changes....

If you are just person do the same please - "this is pile of crap" does not qualify as a comment.

IEEE 1902.1 was passed by work group unanimously in July with over 17 independent companies participating in the work group. It is technically still pending (P1902.1) but will issue by the end of the year. It is in use at DOE, especially in high security areas, the DoD, many hospitals and a number of new Rubee enabled products are scheduled for launch in 2008.. this site is used by many as an introduction to 1902.1 and RuBee world wide .... We all want to to be accurate and easy to understand.. and up to date .. please help with that.

Thanks Very Much

John Stevens Chair IEEE 1902.1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkmstevens (talk • contribs) 20:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I changed the Feng Shui section -- added two references re difficulty of predicting RF outcomes in real world and why - thought might be source of comment above from Vlad -- magnetic communication (inductive) has proven it self over many years - for example t-coil's used in hearing aids

I will add more references and details re why inductive communication is not as modified by local environmental factors -- Vald -- Epson has a demo center in San Jose if you would like to see all of this work - they are supporter of 1902.1

I removed the expert warning in Talk as well as warning to non-referenced pictures - both repaired

Thanks John Stevens, Chair IEEE P1902.1 Jkmstevens 13:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Ideas for improvement

1. The top part is rather heavy, the facts are scattered, examples are provided at inappropriate times, for example the top section. Please consider summarizing the top more and put details and examples in other headings. Work out the "structure" you want the article to have first and then re-write the top part - like an executive summary no more than 5 lines. Have a read here for some guidelines.
2. The article has 3 headings: How it works, RF Feng Shui and pros & cons. Consider breaking it up more. See example below.
3. The RF Feng Shui term is a bit hard to handle, I think thats were many skeptics are coming from. I work in mobile RF and it's the first time I heard the effect of metal objects within the near field being called Feng Shui. If you want to stick with it, you should reference the term, even try to illustrate it. ... practice of placement and arrangement of space to achieve harmony with the environment... from Feng shui. I would even consider "giving up" on the term and call it something else, it is not like one would re-arrange the furniture to get a better signal, but you tune the system to work around the furniture (and when the furniture is re-arranged, one retunes again).
4. RuBee is not RFID by reading your article I would disagree, I think the article states it has a lot in common with RFID, that is RFID as an application. I think what you meant is that it is not based in the same principles and implementations as RFID - hence the comparison section suggested above.
5. use citation templates to reference the main points of the article, specially references that can be read (such as IEEE PDFs, press releases, etc) Example:
   http://standards.ieee.org/announcements/pr_p19021Rubee.html
6. Consider explaining some of the points in layman's terms. This is for an Encyclopedia, not for an IEEE book. Think of a target audience of advanced science high-school or University freshmen, not an audience of your peers.
7. Since there are many points here, I suggest changing one section at a time. My suggestion is to use a Wikipedia:Todo box in the top of the talk page to list accepted ideas and strike them through when they are done. Like this: Change A (done!)

A quick example how to structure the article from the top of my head:

1. How it works
2. Comparisons ( they could be in tabulated form?)
   1. Comparison with RFID?
   2. With other standards
   3. Benefits & Disadvantages
3. Using the technology
   1. Possible applications
   2. Equipment
      1. Tags
      2. Receivers?
      3. Chips
      4. Network routers
      5. Other RuBee equipment
      6. List of manufacturers
4. Industry precursors pre-standardizations
   1. Company X - application, dates, etc (this could be an article on its own!)
   2. Company Y
   3. Company Z
5. Standardization
   1. History/Process
   2. What does standardization bring?
6. RF Feng Shui (so called, see below)
7. Notes / References (merge?)
8. Further reading

--Figarema |^Talk 19:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Reply Ideas for improvement

Figarema

Thanks for taking time to comment on article - anxious to get help, and will read style pages you reference and appreciate your thoughtful comments

I will address issues in-line below

Point One

1. The top part is rather heavy, the facts are scattered, examples are provided at inappropriate times, for example the top section. Please consider summarizing the top more and put details and examples in other headings. Work out the "structure" you want the article to have first and then re-write the top part - like an executive summary no more than 5 lines. Have a read here for some guidelines.

Will try to cleanup - however - please keep in mind we have spent three months defending this site -- keep in mind that was only section left after deletions few weeks ago - Wiki admin concluded it was vandalism - kinda insurance that we have something left to say after both legs removed -

Point Two

1. The article has 3 headings: How it works, RF Feng Shui and pros & cons. Consider breaking it up more. See example below.

will do

Point three

1. The RF Feng Shui term is a bit hard to handle, I think thats were many skeptics are coming from. I work in mobile RF and it's the first time I heard the effect of metal objects within the near field being called Feng Shui. If you want to stick with it, you should reference the term, even try to illustrate it. ... practice of placement and arrangement of space to achieve harmony with the environment... from Feng shui.

Our rational for Feng Shui

Think anyone who has worked with RF will tell you the environment is part of the circuit - provide references (and have added this AM) - We need a new term to explain this -- The Physics is simple

E is both blocked and reflected by Steel - antennas are also de-tunned - Thats why Spread spectrum was developed and now in widespread use in places with Steel (e.g. Symbol's RF handhelds (now Motorola) is all spread spectrun becuase it operates in warehouses. Spread spectrum is not practical as a RFID solution.

Look at

http://www.pictpix.com/PPM/IDTechEx_%20RFID%20progress%20at%20Wal-Mart.pdf

that 44% failure rate because of steel and liquids - I saw a demo yesterday where even cotton blocked a 915 Mhz tag because it had moisture - its quit serious.

H is not reflected and not blocked by steel - it can be warped or distorted - however with a properly tunned loop antenna the RuBee signal is often enhanced by steel - Steel can de-tune a RuBee antenna however it can be re tuned so entire steel item and the Rubee antenna resonate at 131KHz - again this is experimental and we have great papers on this - but it is original research - HOWEVER let me emphasize it is totally expected from simple resonate circuit design and intro Physics 101 - We actually have a patent issued on how to turn a steel shelf into a tunned H antenna (see US4,937,586) issued in 1990.

So E has three problems in harsh environments H has one - now a simple descriptive term is useful - Maybe RF Feng Shui is too cute but sure sticks -- give me some other suggestions  ? Also see below on point four..

Point Four

1. I would even consider "giving up" on the term and call it something else, it is not like one would re-arrange the furniture to get a better signal, but you tune the system to work around the furniture (and when the furniture is re-arranged, one retunes again).

Figarema - You actually do rearrange the furniture with RFID to get a better signal - thats why we used Feng Shui -- you only re-tune antenna with H or RuBee - you do not move furniture with RuBee ...

Point Five

1. RuBee is not RFID by reading your article I would disagree, I think the article states it has a lot in common with RFID, that is RFID as an application.

RFID is not an application -

Tracking is an application - Visibility is an application - You won't make many friends by saying that RuBee is RFID - RFID is a passive non-radiating transponder - 100's of patents have been issued since 1979 when this concept of backscattered resonance was first introduced - 100% of those claim to be RFID and all are non-radiating transponders. Also 100's have been issued linked to WiFi Zigbee bluetooth and other transceiver technologies not one claims to be RFID -- I have some detailed material that can provide if useful - RuBee is a radiating transceiver - it does not even have an ID (it uses IP addresses and subnet addresses) - RuBee tags do have a MAC address, but not used for networking.

RFID can not be everything in world linked to radio or magnetic signal

Let me ask you is WiFi and Zigbee and cell phones and bluetooth RFID as well - This leads to lot of confusion for high school students and even engineers - RuBee is a peer to peer packet based, on demand protocol - it is not a transponder - You can not easily make RFID work in visibility applications - it is really for tracking and events - its a bar code replacement - Visibility often requires real time status, pedigrees and sensors.. My own company and other RuBee user companies deal with above everyday - NASA is using RuBee for monitoring many things, DOE uses RuBee for weapon visibility, but also monitors number of shots for maintenance records, Rubee tags are used in many high security applications with full public private key encryptions - that requires date time - can not do any of this with RFID --

Visibility is a new category and right now only contenders are RuBee Wifi Zigbee - but in harsh environments or where security is critical RuBee usually wins - RFID is usually not considered for any of these applications.

Even the editor of RFID Journal has finally backed down calling RuBee RFID..

Point Six

I think what you meant is that it is not based in the same principles and implementations as RFID - hence the comparison section suggested above.

1. use citation templates to reference the main points of the article, specially references that can be read (such as IEEE PDFs, press releases, etc) Example:
   http://standards.ieee.org/announcements/pr_p19021Rubee.html
2. Consider explaining some of the points in layman's terms. This is for an Encyclopedia, not for an IEEE book. Think of a target audience of advanced science high-school or University freshmen, not an audience of your peers.

Again I apologize that this is far from perfect article - I am very busy and have not had as much time as I would like to spend on reference format or other things you mention - I do understand not for peers - We have a communications budget and would love ot get professional wikipeadian to help - But do need help to watch site - seems like a mention RFID brings in an attack -- less true now

To be honest my company and others do not see RFID in market as even a minor competitor any more ..

Point Seven

1. Since there are many points here, I suggest changing one section at a time. My suggestion is to use a Wikipedia:Todo box in the top of the talk page to list accepted ideas and strike them through when they are done. Like this: Change A (done!)

A quick example how to structure the article from the top of my head:

1. How it works
2. Comparisons ( they could be in tabulated form?)
   1. Comparison with RFID?
   2. With other standards
   3. Benefits & Disadvantages
3. Using the technology
   1. Possible applications
   2. Equipment
      1. Tags
      2. Receivers?
      3. Chips
      4. Network routers
      5. Other RuBee equipment
      6. List of manufacturers
4. Industry precursors pre-standardizations
   1. Company X - application, dates, etc (this could be an article on its own!)
   2. Company Y
   3. Company Z
5. Standardization
   1. History/Process
   2. What does standardization bring?
6. RF Feng Shui (so called, see below)
7. Notes / References (merge?)
8. Further reading

--Figarema |^Talk 19:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

This helps and will try to use as a guide - thanks for taking this seriously and spending so much time

Regards John Stevens

Jkmstevens 22:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)