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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Michaelkulov (talk | contribs) at 00:13, 28 September 2007 (→List of nontheists). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

List of nontheists

List of nontheists (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

I have nominated two articles for deletion - Nontheism and List of nontheists.

These two articles should be deleted for the following reasons:

  • The word nontheism is not recorded in notable dictionaries as of 2007. Thus, it fails WP:OR. Wikipedia is not a place to define new terms. There are no reliable sources which clearly define nontheism. It fails WP:V.
  • The definition of nontheists in the List of nontheists is incorrect. According to the list, the definition of nontheists is: "A nontheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of God or deities." This is a definition of atheist. And, there is no reliable source which define nontheist as someone who does not believe in the existence of God or deities. Thus, it fails WP:V.
  • To call someone a nontheist can be problematic. They may them self reject such label. On list of nontheists many famous people who have never identified themselves as a nontheist are identified as a nontheist. Wikipedia is the only place where such label is used.
  • Many people consider nontheism to be just another term for atheism. There is no point in having separate articles. RS1900 14:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. RS1900 13:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/Merge - Redirect nontheism to atheism, and delete List of nontheists entirely.-- Floaterfluss (talk) (contribs) 15:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/Merge as per Floaterfluss. - Pureblade | Θ 17:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as suggested--the definition is too controversial, and as stated, does not correspond to the entries. The entries--at least the ones for other lists--seem to use the logical "people, other than theists"-- but however logical, that it not a standard term and proves confusing. DGG (talk) 18:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both.
    • Existence and use of the term is attested to by multiple sources, as cited in the Nontheism article. Words and concepts that are defined by reliable third party sources are legitimate subjects of Wikipedia articles, even if major dictionaries have not yet caught up enough to document them. Besides, non-theist and non-theistic are defined by the Oxford English Dictionary, so even if one accepts the "it's not in a dictionary, so it shouldn't be in Wikipedia" argument, an article on nontheists is in order.
    • The definition is correct, per the OED definitions for non-theist and theist. A non-theist is "A person who is not a theist." A theist is "a person who believes in God or gods" or "a person who believes in one God who created and intervenes in the universe."
    • The definition in the List of nontheists is the same as a definition of "atheist," but it is not the definition. As documented in Atheism (a feature article), some definitions of that word specify that only those who deny the existence of a deity are atheists, which would mean that not all nontheists are atheists. Also, agnostics are nontheists, yet agnosticism is commonly considered to be a position distinct from atheism.
    • Calling someone a nontheist is not problematic, as it does not bear the same potentially pejorative sense long carried by the label atheist (as in "godless" or "immoral.") I suppose one could call them "people who do not believe in God," but nontheist is perfectly descriptive of that position--it says the same thing.
    • Wikipedia is not the only place where the label nontheist is used. It has been used by the sources the OED referred to when making its entry for "non-theist," and by the many sources cited in the Nontheism article.
    • Many people do consider nontheism to be just another term for atheism. But that is just one point of view among many. Many people also consider nontheism to be a category that contains atheism, but also contains other positions that are not atheism. That's why there ought to be separate articles. A redirect is inappropriate.
    • Whether a term is potentially confusing has no import on whether it ought to have an article. Atheism is a potentially confusing term, with multiple points of view as to its "standard" definition, yet it remains, and ought to. English vocabulary, theology and philosophy aren't always clean and easy to understand, but articles relating to these sometimes messy issues still fulfill the proper role of an encyclopedia.
    • At best, these arguments point to a need for additional sourcing and edits to clarify, not deletion, merging or redirecting. Arguments based on the contention that nontheism = atheism are dependent on a particular point of view, and any action based on such reasoning runs counter to WP:NPOV. Nick Graves 19:19, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nick, you are right. Non-theist and non-theistic are defined by the Oxford English Dictionary. However, Nontheism is not recorded in notable dictionaries as of 2007. Thus, it fails WP:OR.
      • A non-theist is "A person who is not a theist." How do you define theism? A theist is "a person who believes in God or gods". Here God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. Thus, a nontheist can believe in an impersonal God. On List of nontheists we have people who have clearly stated that they do not believe in any God - personal or impersonal.
      • You said "agnostics are nontheists". That's incorrect. An agnostic believe that the existance of God is unknown. One cannot prove or disprove the existance of God. Agnosticism is a state of neither belief or disbelief. Thus, nontheists are not agnostics.
      • That's your POV.
      • Nick, can you find a single source where Nontheism is not connected to atheism? No. That's the problem. RS1900 02:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Nontheism and Delete list. The list is pretty useless, and is often a point of contention except in clear cases of self-identification. But nontheism is a distinctly separate term implying a form of atheistic belief (just like agnosticism is often considered to be in the family of atheistic thought). If necessary, I can go into more detail about the differences, but I feel the article makes this sufficiently clear. To be perfectly honest, only someone who doesn't know squat about the subject could think it is simply an analogy for atheism, just read the source material for pete's sake. VanTucky Talk 19:35, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • In what way are entries on the list a point of contention? If you're talking about the nontheist groups listed, I'm inclined to agree. I added that section to address concerns of T. Anthony, who favored more inclusiveness for the list. I'd favor deleting that section if other editors agree that it is potentially contentious. What do you mean by self-identification? Do you mean only persons who have specifically used the word "nontheist" for themselves? Can persons who have simply said "I don't believe in God" be considered to have identified themselves as nontheists, even if they don't use the word? I believe they can, given the literal meaning of the word, and the fact that, unlike atheist, nontheist is merely descriptive of a position, without a potentially pejorative sense. Nick Graves 22:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Nick, you said, "nontheist is merely descriptive of a position, without a potentially pejorative sense." Well, that's your POV. RS1900 03:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both. Delete article, Keep list. Nontheist is just a way of saying "not a theist", as is made clear by the word itself and the article. Therefore, the concept of nontheism is sufficiently covered by good coverage of Theism. Most of the article is just explaining the word, which is useless because the meaning of the word is obvious. On the other hand, the list of nontheistic groups is interesting because it shows at a glance the groups that don't require a belief in gods, and the list of nontheists is interesting and it is far easier to assemble than a list of atheists, because atheism is harder to show than nontheism. I think the sources cited are sufficient to show nontheism for the people listed, so there is nothing wrong with this list. -- Lilwik 20:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Lilwik, even if the meaning of nontheism is obvious, the Nontheism article does a good job of documenting its etymology and the history of its usage, and points out such facts as the word's macaronic nature, which would not be obvious to most readers. Besides, an encyclopedia's job is to document subjects no matter their level of complexity or obviousness. That's why we have such articles as Peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Nick Graves 17:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's a good point. Okay, you've convinced me. The fact that nontheism isn't in the dictionary just makes it all the more interesting as a topic, since it's a word with a history and a real, interesting etymology that is not in common usage. -- Lilwik 18:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both The premise of both articles is that there is a belief system called "nontheism" that is not exactly the same as atheism or agnosticism, and that certain famous people are nontheists. The problem I have with both articles is the, pardon the expression, "holier than thou" approach by someone who holds himself or herself out to be a theologian who doesn't need anything to back up statements. Thus, we are told that "Most agnostics are nontheists, though there are some agnostic theists." Was there a survey of some sort? And "All atheists are nontheists in the narrow and broad senses of the word". And "Certain Buddhists believe the Buddha to be a deity". If you were smart, of course, you would KNOW these things already. Sorry, I don't buy it. Mandsford 21:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your comments seem odd and self-contradictory. "If you are smart, of course, you would know these things already," makes it sound as though you think the article is correct. "I don't buy it," seems to have the opposite meaning. Are you saying that smart people know these things are true, but you say they're false? -- Lilwik 22:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such premise to these articles, and I find your tone unnecessarily condescending. johnpseudo 23:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mandsford, your comment borders on being a personal attack. Even if you were correct that the editor has a "holier than thou" attitude, that has no bearing on whether the article should be deleted. If the tone of the prose is haughty, then it ought to be edited accordingly. Tone is not grounds for deletion. The need for sources to back up claims is a substantive criticism, and I have removed the "Nontheist groups" section of the list pending documentation of the claims made there. The remainder of the list--the definitions of the word, and the individual entries--are all well documented by reliable sources. Nick Graves 17:13, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Aw gee, three in a row? The "If you were smart" comment was my attempt at sarcasm. The point is that when one challenges someone about a "fact" that is tossed out with no proof, the response is often, "Well everyone knows that!". It's a wonderful tool for manipulation, and something that you should be aware of. This article is full of such "facts", like "most agnostics are nontheists" or, "certain Buddhists" do thus and such. If I were to say "Most patriots are Republicans", would you assume that it was true? Or, more likely, would you say, "Mandford, where's your proof of that?" I didn't intend to attack Nick Graves personally -- I didn't check to see who the authors or contributors were, and I don't know Nick from Adam -- but I do attack the articles. Writing style can be fixed easily, but locating sources isn't as easy a fix. Mandsford 22:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mandsford, don't listen to Nick Graves. He said: "The remainder of the list--the definitions of the word, and the individual entries--are all well documented by reliable sources". None of that is true. The definition of the non-theist on List of nontheists is incorrect. List of nontheists is "anything goes" type of list. RS1900 03:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments on the list I think the list is intrinsically worthless because there will be nobody to include. Most of the people now there say they are atheists. They belong in the atheist list if its relevant to their notability--some are.. Agnostics, belong in their appropriate list. Any pantheists, likewise, and deists, and Buddhists, and so forth. So who would be in it--all of the above? we don't do super-lists like that --it would be like a "List of alumni of American colleges, as well as the specific ones. Or "List of major-party members of Congress" Or "List of MPs other than Conservative" There may be some people whose beliefs are so totally nonspecific that they fit in no other category: but that is not a manageable basis for a list, which requires some degree of consistency. How does one classify someone who says "I mean, I don't believe in God, I don't believe in heaven or hell, but I pray three or four times a day." I classify him as as confused. Do we really want a "List of people with confused ideas of religion"? Even if it were useful, it's POV, and would require that they be shown not to have ever said something more definable. Or consider: "I don't believe in God, but I believe God invented four-tracks" --I classify that as a clever phrase that may or may not have any connection to actual religious belief. Further, we don't usually include people in these lists unless it is in some way relevant to their notability or career. I can not see how the fact that some one has such a vague belief can possible have such belief relevant to anything important about themselves. DGG (talk) 22:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, none of the people in the list have identified as atheists, agnostics or otherwise — if you can demonstrate otherwise they only need be transferred to the appropriate list. This excludes very minor subdivisions - only a handful of people identify as ignostics, so it would not be appropriate to start a five-name list for them. That very small list, along with people who do not believe in deities but do not identify as atheists, agnostics or other major groups, would belong in the list. Lists (as opposed to categories) very frequently include people to whose notability the subject is not important - including the vast majority of college alumni to which you refer. ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 09:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both. Per the well thought-out arguments of Nick Graves. Nontheism is a useful, well-documented term, and the list is fairly non-contentious and informative. johnpseudo 23:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Johnpseudo, the word nontheism is not defined by any notable dictionaries as of 2007. The definition of nontheists is totally incorrect. How can we have such article and list? Both should be deleted. You said that the list is fairly non-contentious and informative. Really? Almost all people on List of nontheists have clearly said "I don't believe in God". When someone says "I don't believe in God", he is an atheist. And, there is no source which clearly define nontheism. RS1900 02:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • None of this is true. Nontheist is defined by the OED. Dictionaries do not need to define a term for it to be notable per WP:NEO. Mere absence of belief in God or a deity is not atheism under all definitions and given that atheist has a pejorative use it would be unwise to label someone as an atheist if they do not identify as such. There are plenty of sources defining nontheism, both explicitly and through use. ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 09:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Keep per Nick graves... very good and exhaustive argument.JJJ999 02:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep for Nontheism - references are clearly provided in the article. If there is reason to dispute these, I suggest taking it up on Talk first. At worst, move to non-theistic, which apparentely is in the dictionary. Mdwh 02:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete for List of nontheists. Few of those listed seem to identify as non-theists, and this issue seems to be better covered by the other lists (although note that the consensus is that "Lists of people" are rather dubious generally, as we can't be sure whether a person should be classified as such, and it risks violating Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons). Mdwh 02:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Mdwh, the other lists do cover the vast majority of nontheists. However, this list fulfills a useful role by listing person who do not fit the criteria of the other lists, but who can clearly be identified as nontheists. I do not believe self-identification by the specific term "nontheist" is necessary for inclusion in the case of this list, since, unlike atheist, nontheist is not a potentially pejorative term, and is merely descriptive of someone holding a stance that can be documented by a reliable source. Nick Graves 17:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • And, who set the criteria? Who decides which word is pejorative or not? Nontheist is not a potentially pejorative term because it is an unknown term. It is simply an obscure and ill-defined term. People simply don't use such terms and famous people who are categorized as a nontheist have never used such term. RS1900 04:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Nontheism and Delete list. I echo VanTucky above, for pete's sake. --Evb-wiki 02:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete the hopelessly open ended list. Artw 02:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Recently List of Christians was deleted. Please see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Christians (2nd nomination). Unencyclopedic lists and articles must be deleted. RS1900 03:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • List of Christians had serious problems that List of nontheists does not have. The membership on the List of Christians did not have sources to support each one, and the rules for membership were vague and went against the rules for Wikipedia lists because of that. In contrast, the List of nontheists has support for each entry and simple rules for membership in the list, as simple as the definition of theism. -- Lilwik 04:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • There is a difference. On List of nontheists, people who have never identified themselves as a nontheist are also listed as a nontheist. And, please look at the definiton of nontheist. According to the list, the definition of nontheists is: "A nontheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of God or deities." I tried to find a source where nontheist is defined like this. I couldn't find any source. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a non-theist is "A person who is not a theist." How do you define theism? A theist is "a person who believes in God or gods". Here God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. Thus, a nontheist can believe in an impersonal God. On List of nontheists we have people who have clearly stated that they do not believe in any God - personal or impersonal. RS1900 04:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • If "a nontheist can believe in an impersonal God," how can you argue that nontheism and atheism be covered in the same article? --Evb-wiki 04:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • I am not agruing that nontheism and atheism should covered in the same article. Nontheism is not defined yet. However, non-theist is defined as someone who is not a theist. RS1900 05:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Your explanation is not clear to me. You have nicely broken down the meaning of nontheist according to Oxford and it matches the meaning given by the list. Yet you say it does not match? If a nontheist is someone who is not a theist and a theist is someone who believes in God or gods, then through the simplest of logic we directly derive that a nontheist is someone who does not believe in God or gods. Of course we have people on the list who state they do not believe in God; that describes everyone on the list. What has being personal or impersonal got to do with that? Please do not take offense, I merely find your reasoning to be not clearly explained. -- Lilwik 05:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • Please read what I wrote carefully. Theist is someone who believes in God or gods. Here theistic God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. In other word, theist is a person who believe in a God which is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. A person can reject the concept of personal God (God which is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent) and believe in an impersonal God. Deists typically reject supernatural events such as miracles and tend to assert that God does not interfere with human life and the laws of the universe. There are many people who believe in an impersonal God and reject the concept of divine intervention. On List of nontheists we have people who have clearly stated that they do not believe in any God - personal or impersonal. RS1900 05:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • That is not the definition of a personal god RS. Please read the appropriate article. Further, a theist (per your own definition) is not someone who believes in a personal god, but merely someone who believes in a deity. Therefore, a nontheist is someone who does not believe in a deity. Therefore, the list should contain people who do not believe in deities, as it does. Nontheists of a more specific nature, such as those identifying as belonging to major groups of nonthiesm such as atheism or agnosticism, are placed in the more precise list. Regardless of your entire argument, someone who does not believe in any god neither matches the most restrictive definition of an atheist, nor are they a theist. ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 09:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
                • A theist is someone who believes in a deity. But what kind of a deity? A deity which is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. A personal who rejects the concept of theistic God is called deist. RS1900 13:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Artw, how is the list hopelessly open-ended. The inclusion criteria are clearly defined. There is a finite supply of notable people whose nontheism can be reliably documented. Nick Graves 17:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per above. --RucasHost 04:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep article, delete list. V35322 05:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep both per the Nick Graves. ~ Switch (✉✍☺☒) 09:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep article, no opinion on list. Dictionary inclusion is not a requirement, the term is attested and has a reliable definition distinct from atheist. Article is referenced, and I don't really see the problem. SamBC(talk) 09:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete list, keep article. The article has some good content and will continue to grow and develop. The list, like most other such belief lists, it's basically an indiscriminate collection that would better be served as a category if even such a thing were needed. Prominent or notable nontheists can be discussed in the article without the need for such a list (note: that is not a merge vote as such content should be in prose form in the article, not in a list form). violet/riga (t) 09:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Violetriga, the list criteria are clearly defined, so I do not see how the list is an indiscriminate collection of information. Categories do not perform the same function as lists, since they cannot contain references or substantiating quotes. Nick Graves 17:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep article for sure, but I have mixed feelings about the list. The reason the list exists is a very internal to Wikipedia, and can be hard for other people to understand. We don't want to list people as atheists, unless they either self-identify or explicitly and state they believe that God does not exist. However, if someone just says "I don't believe in God", he isn't allowed on the list of atheists, but he is allowed here. Essentially, we have "List of strong atheists and self-identifying atheists" and "List of weak atheists and self-identifying non-theists". In some sense, this is a very long-sought for compromise between editors of different POVs, I wouldn't throw it out the window, instead I wish it was more clear to the reader what is going on here. Many people would consider the statement "Personally, I don't believe in God at all" as atheist, while something like "I'm not sure, perhaps there is a god, no, I don't think so, I believer there is no God" seems to me much weaker, and the person just happened to use a strong atheism formulation. Anyway, my conclusion is then a weak keep for the list, because although I'm a bit uncomfortable with it, the list is a difficult compromise on a very sensitive topic: the definition of atheism. --Merzul 12:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In some cases, and in some cases its a synonym. Certainly some of the people on this list are strong atheists by any definition based on the information shown about them here & elsewhere. Weak conception.: list of people who have at one time or another said "I dont believe in a personal god"--that's not defined enough to be usable.DGG (talk) 00:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Article, per Nick Graves and because the root of the term "non-theist" is defined by OED, which makes the slight variation "Nontheism" not WP:OR. Also, while the prose needs a lot of work, there is definite potential to expand. Also seems like there is only one editor (the nominator him/herself) vehemently for the deletion and their only points were well refuted by Graves in his original response. The list is weaker as the names are not self-identified as non-theists and many could object to "Nontheist" as soon as "Atheist." Adam McCormick 00:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • In fairness, I do see a handful of "delete" recommendations above. And more for just the list. --Evb-wiki 00:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, how do you define the term 'atheist'? An atheist is a person who do not believe in the existance of God. So, why do we have people who have clearly said "I don't believe in God" listed on List of nontheists? It simply doesn't make any sense. RS1900 02:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Perhaps it is because the class of nontheists is broader than the class of atheists. All atheists are nontheists, but not all notheists are atheists. That might explain it. --Evb-wiki 02:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, we don't need a kind of super-list, do we? The definition of the term 'atheist' is quite strainghtforward. An atheist is a person who do not believe in the existance of God. Thus, when someone says "I don't believe in God", he is an atheist. RS1900 03:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • The problem with atheism is that not everyone shares your POV on what atheism means. Another common usage of the word has atheist mean a person who believes that gods don't exist. In that case, simply saying, "I don't believe in God," would not necessarily make you an atheist. Nontheism does not suffer from that difficulty. -- Lilwik 04:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: RS1900 is to be commended for the rigor of his thinking.
  • If it were up to me, self-described "agnostics" would be classified as "atheists" since, if they can't decide whether there is a God/god, they cannot be said to believe in one; and a person who does not believe in a God/god is an atheist.
  • Unfortunately, as with other belief or non-belief systems, the universe of atheism has become splintered, partly due to bigots who have freighted a simple concept with pejorative baggage.
  • A fairly neutral (probably because less known) term is "nontheism," which may perhaps serve as an umbrella term — not only for "atheism" and "agnosticism" but also for belief systems, many of them Asian, that have not thought even to make use of the concept of divinity.
  • So I shall stick — happily — with "nontheism."


The initial poster was RS1900 — who has indeed been doing valiant combat with the forces of godless nontheism. Nihil novi 05:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
please see my comment below; i've argued enough on the pointlessness of the list in the list itself, but i've decided not to opt for the deletion of the article due to its history. Michaelkulov 00:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It might be worth striking/editing your original comment to help the closing admin get an overview of views. SamBC(talk) 00:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, doing that now. Michaelkulov 00:13, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy KEEP Nontheism. This is akin to deleting and redirecting Protestantism to Christianity because the former is one of the forms of the latter. The term nontheism/nontheist has been around since at least the 1800s according to OED. The term has obvious differences with the various forms of atheism, which all need to be explained thoroughly. It makes no sense to redirect one name to another, much broader name, when both names have their own varied histories. Abstain for List of nontheists. — BRIAN0918 • 2007-09-27 15:55Z
Pretty good point with the article. You could probably toss the list and keep the article. Michaelkulov 16:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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