Talk:Lapita culture

Recent changes re genetics

Could User:Peter L. Marsh please give sources for his material about the recent genetic studies? In the meantime I have reverted the article to an earlier version. This might be the Peter Marsh, an Australian writer who believes that Polynesians derive from native American tribes that entered the Pacific from the Alaska area just before the birth of Christ, ie, a supporter of the Heyerdahl theory. Kahuroa 02:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Peter Marsh

See, for example, Polynesian Pathways by Peter Marsh, and the discussion of the Teouma skeletons on the Science Forum at rvgroups.com, referencing (disapprovingly) an article by "an editorial by a journalist who thinks Peter Marsh is an authority". -- Jmc 19:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Polynesian Pathways site appears seriously dodgy. For instance, looking at its statements on the linguistics of Polynesian, it shows incredible lack of understanding, as per statements like "Linguists have now shown that the Austronesian language spoken in the Solomon islands is the most ancient form of this language, estimated to be over 15,000 years old. The Polynesian version of Austronesian is from Taiwan only 6,000 years ago, showing a direction of dispersal opposite to what has previously been believed." That statement is just full of errors - and no linguist would ever single out Polynesian languages as having a different origin to the rest of Austronesian, nor is it linguistically valid to say that certain languages are 'older' than others in a given language family. Just ridiculous. And the strong association of Taiwan with Polynesian is an artefact created by ill-informed journalists oversimplifying - ie, stories about Austronesian origins in Taiwan get reported here in New Zealand as if Māori alone were involved. It really annoys me how Polynesia seems to attract the flaky, but I guess it afflicts other fields too Kahuroa 20:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response from Peter Marsh; I Agree that I am no linguist, I am only going on a scientific paper which argued the case that Austronesian spoken by Melanesians displayed ancient characteristics which suggested that it was the mother language of Austronesian and they dated it at ~15,000 years. I will try and find this paper which I agree, contradicts many other papers. New Guinea has the most diverse range of languages in the Western Pacific - which clearly hints that there have been many waves of population groups in this area. (Geneticists believe the first wave of Homo sapiens to enter New Guinea were the Pygmies from Africa 100,000 years ago). What we see today are relics of this colourful and complicated history. I would like to point out that the above theory suggesting the Austronesian language came from New Guinea 15,000 years ago concurs with the genetic evidence of Mark Stoneking etal(see http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page5.htm ) that Polynesians had a Melanesian male ancestor 11,500 years ago but since then evolved quite separately until 1,000 years ago. Geneticists also agree that Polynesians left Taiwan 6,000 years ago (so do the linguists), but did not arrive in the central Pacific until 2,000 years ago where they evolved for ~1,000 years in complete isolation (ie Hawaii) see; http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/GeneticsrewritesPacificprehistory.htm

So Mr Kahuroa, where do you think Polynesians lived for 4,000 years after they left Taiwan 6,000 years ago? Why does the genetic evidence show an absence of contact with Melanesians from 11,500 years ago, until 1,000 years ago? How can you explain that? Why did they not adopt Melanesian ways? Why did they not interbreed? If they did, Polynesians would have frizzy hair - and you know they don't. Why can Hawaiians remember their genealogy back 16,000 years? With the Melanesian "Big Man" society, genealogy is irelevant. Why didn't Polynesians use outriggers? Why did their boats "go about" in the conventional manner instead of shunting like Melanesian outriggers? Why did Melanesians and the Lapita people (as well as the Indian ocean traders) use money cowries for currency wheras Polynesians used mats for currency - the same as the Haida, Kwakuitl and Tlingit of Canada. see; http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page3.htm All of these questions are answered by my hypothesis - none of them can be answered by the old Lapita/Polynesian theories.See; http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page6.htm

Native Americans from Haida Gwaii and especially the Tlingit from Prince of Wales Island have the same genes, blood groups, appearance, social system, economic system and carving techniques as the Polynesians. They also share the Polynesian toolkit; Two piece fishhook,trolling lure, harpoon head, whale tooth pendant, reel ornament, tattooing needle, phallic and stirrup stone pestles and war clubs (Patu). see; http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page3.htm

Neither Melanesian nor Lapita sites have ever uncovered a single item from this list. Only a severely brainwashed or IQ challenged individual would fail to see these connections.

With regard to genetics and the Lapita/Polynesian connection: this is a direct quote from Lisa Matissoo-Smith in her interview on "The Lapita special 3" (can still be viewed in the archives section on TV NZ Tagata Pasifika website July 25th 2005). She said; "We were able to look to see whether the individual possessed a particular mutation that we see at a very high frequency in Polynesians. It is a 9based pair mutation of Mitichondrial DNA and we found that the Teouma material - the first samples that we analysed did not have that mutation, so they did not look like 98% of the people we see living in Polynesia today."

I believe since this interview she has been told to shut up about her findings as two years have passed and no report has been forthcoming.

Have another look at my site and have a good look at the hard facts which are there with references. Go ahead and look for areas of speculation and shoot me down, but in doing so, you will have missed the point. Speculation is a highly necessary part of any research as it opens the door to areas that need more research. Two PHD students have already contacted me thanking me for my site as it gave them an insight into areas of research that had been ignored by the "old school".

May the truth be told.

Peter Marsh www.polynesian-prehistory.com