Talk:Mosaic authorship

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Started this article, because the phrase "Mosaic authorship" is mentioned ni quite a few articles dealing with biblical scholarship but the article describing it does not exist.

This has been written off the top of the head and is intended simply to scetch the broad outline of what the article needs to cover. Please feel free to amend, improve, add references, etc etc.

PiCo 01:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm uncertain whther it is worth mentioning the errors that Hoffmann and Jacob Benno pointed out in the DH. I suspect most of their points were taken care of by the newer formulations that date P to be earlier. Wolf2191 22:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should stick to explaining the MA rather than the DH. There might be room for this in the DH page of course. But what did Hoffman and Jacobs say? (As for redating P, I'm impressed by what Friedman says on that subject, arguing that the Tabernacle was real, not fictional, as Wellhausen had said). PiCo 23:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From NEJ (Encyclopedia Judaica)on Hoffmann: "His biblical investigations, too, were directed against biblical criticism. These writings, which occupied him for many years, were viewed by Hoffmann as "a holy undertaking… an obligatory battle to answer decisively these new critics who come as oppressors to violate the holy Torah." In his work opposing Wellhausen, Hoffmann rejected the theories of "sources," but he did not formulate an original method of biblical investigation, relying on the basic assumption of "Torah from heaven." In his commentaries to Leviticus and Deuteronomy he relied on rabbinic homiletical and exegetical interpretations for an understanding of these books, as well as offering his own innovative ideas, often based on comparisons between biblical Hebrew and other Semitic languages. While his approach to biblical investigation was essentially the result of the conditions of his time and place, they have stood the test of time and are still studied."

On Jacob Benno: "His principal field of activity in biblical research was the Pentateuch. Although he was not a fundamentalist, his conclusions, as a result of his study of the text rather than on religious grounds, were a complete denial of modern Bible criticism – both textual criticism and Higher Criticism with its documentary hypothesis. He regarded the traditional text more reliable than the ancient translations. He considered the arbitrary textual emendations of Higher Criticism to be unscientific because their only purpose was to validate the latter's own assumptions. Moreover, he accused the school of Higher Criticism of antisemitic trends and of prejudices against Judaism. His opinions were propounded in Der Pentateuch, exegetischkritische Forschungen (1905) and Quellenscheidung und Exegese im Pentateuch (1916). He clarified biblical ideas and expressions which had not been properly understood in Im Namen Gottes (1903) and Auge um Auge, eine Untersuchung zum Alten und Neuen Testament (1929). He also developed a theory concerning the internal rhythm of the Bible, which is expressed by the repetition of key words in set numbers in the narratives of the Torah and its laws, in Die Abzaehlungen in den Gesetzen der Buecher Leviticus und Numeri (1909). His major exegetical work is Das erste Buch der Torah: Genesis, uebersetzt und erklaert (1934). While Jacob did not accept the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch nor the dogma of literal inspiration, he found in its composition so much literary unity and spiritual harmony that all search for its "sources" appeared to him an exercise in futile hypothesis. His comprehensive commentaries on Exodus and a section of Leviticus are extant in manuscript. (An excerpt from the commentary on Exodus was published in Judaism, 13 (1964), 3–18.)" Note, as a Reform Rabbi Jacob dis not believe in MA, but his work is used by Nechama Liebowitz and others to bolster MA.

See also this guy [1].

And don't forget about the Hertz Chumash Wolf2191 01:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He considered the arbitrary textual emendations of Higher Criticism to be unscientific because their only purpose was to validate the latter's own assumptions. An example of this is the pair saq-amtahat, the first characterizing E and the second J according to nearly all critics. the appearance of saq in Gen 42:27 contradicts the source-critical division into documents. The "solution" to this is either to emend saq to amtahat or to attribute its appearance to the Redactor. (In progress) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolf2191 (talk • contribs) 02:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting blog ([2]) and I'll read more of it. He raises some interesting points. But let me say first that I wish more people would read the Prolegomena before they venture opinions on it. It's not about the documentary hypothesis at alol, contrary to what a lot of people seem to think - it's about the development of Israelite and Jewish religion, using Wellhausen's analysis of the sources of the biblical texts as its basis. It takes the DH for granted. W's views on the DH were set out in an earlier book, called, I believe, "Sources of the Pentateuch" or something like that - it's mentioned in the documentary hypothesis article.

The blogger is quite right to say that earlier writers had anticipated W's arguments - W's aim was to defend and promote the views of earlier scholars whose thinking tended in the direction he wanted to go himself - a late P. He wanted this because it supported his views on the late development of Judaism. He saw Israelite religion as originally polytheistic, with a royal cult developing in the Kingdom period and finally a putsch by the Temple priests.

This brings us to the interesting questoin of W's anti-Semitism. I haven't read anything by him that I could construe as anti-Semitic - nothing hateful about Jews at all. BUT, he obviously wanted the Jews as a people to be absorbed into mainstream European society...BUT again, I get the distinct impression that he saw European society as essentially secular, not religious. If the Temple priests saw Temple priests as being the highest estate to which man could aspire, Wellhausen saw the German university professor as the pinnacle of human evolution. I don't think he had a religious bone in his body.

I started writing an article about the Prolegomena but didn't quite finish it - but if you go the article on Julius Wellhausen you should find a link to it.

If you think Benno and Hoffman are important, by all means put them in here. But it's probably best to mention only the essential names - the world is full of scholars and exegetes, and there simply isn't room for all of them. (I'd encourage you to write articles about them, too. PiCo 11:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

David Zvi Hoffman has a decent article already. I will work on a Jacob article. In terms of MA Hoffman is basically THE main player on the Orthodox side which is why his work need be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolf2191 (talk • contribs) 03:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good source

[3] good source. Wolf2191 05:50, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(I made your latest into a new section, as the page was getting a bit long and unweildy). Yes it is a good source - by Gil Student I gather?. I have a little trouble distinguishing his own ideas from those of others that he summarises. But it would make a good basis for organising the article - on the basis of various ideas on just how Moses wrote the Torah, whether by direct dictation and all at one time, by dictation but not all at one time, whether Genesis was based on written sources available to Moses, etc. PiCo 06:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To use Students own words "It's all a (poorly written) summary of an essay by R. Menachem Mendel Kasher in the addenda to one of the volumes of Torah Shelemah." Will try to work on it some other timeWolf2191 14:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article

I like very much this article but would like the mention of some of the oldest manuscripts of the torah so as to show that the latest possible date for the writing of the torah i know there are manuscripts predating that of the dead sea scrolls but I am not sure what they are named--75.43.79.238 11:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I found one notable manuscript at Ketef Hinnom was found a manuscript dating to 600 BCE i will finish writing this later--75.43.79.238 11:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]