Talk:Nuclear terrorism

Removed statements about use of nuclear weapons during WWII as possible acts of terrorism. These statesments violate Wikipedia guidelines Wikipedia:Cite Sources and Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. The use of nuclear weapons during a declared war by uniformed military under orders from top government authority is not terrorism. At most, it may be considered a possible war crime, but even that is doubtful.

I just have an honest question about this: "Others believe that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki constitute such an act." First, I'm not positive I agree with that statement because a declared state of war existed between Japan and the United States, but I can accept it IF someone can point to some sources where people are stating that they believe the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be nuclear terrorism. I would then support changing "others" to "$sources" in the statment. --ABQCat 00:00, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't know what the article's author had in mind because I didn't write it, but I think the origin of this statement lie in the serious problem of defining the word "terrorist" in a neutral apolitical fashion that would be of practical use when deciding how the international community should respond. The best suggestion so far, IMHO, was made by the Indian government which said it would simply be "any act of violence that contravenes the Geneva Convention". Technically, I think but I'm not sure, the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki could be arguably said to contravene the convention because they were deliberate attacks on civilian areas of little military significance. The same "terrorism" label is sometimes also applied to the deliberate British bombing of civilian areas in Germany (especially the city of Dresden) as ordered by the famous Royal Air Force officer "Bomber" Harris. Bomber Harris' actions have actually been a great source of controversy in Britain over the past couple of decades, with many now of the opinion that they should never have happened and should be classed as war crimes because Harris' conscious and stated strategy was to end the war by deliberately killing as many German civilians as possible in order to break their morale. Deliberate indiscriminate mass killing of civilians in order to break morale is, in many people's eyes, also a definition of a terrorist act. I assume the phrase about Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the article is meant to refer to similar discussions about the morality and legality of using the atomic bombs on those cities.

Vandalism by Pro-US editors

Certain editors have first rewritten the sections on hiroshima and nagasaki with horrendous editorialising, and then deleted them outright. Due to the 3RR rule I can't do anything about this right now (but I will continue to reinsert the sections in question at a later date).

The view the these were acts of terrorism is quite prevelant and deserves attention, regardless of whether certian people wish to sweep them under the carpet. Damburger 14:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems no matter how much evidence I produce that people do hold that opinion, the pro-US crowd on here stick to blind denial. The section needs to stay as a contrary opinion. Regardless of whether it offends certain editors senses of nationalism. Damburger 14:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You need to start by actually producing evidence, and if, as you claim, "The view the these were acts of terrorism is quite prevelant", you should have no problem producing WP:RS that say this. What you have done so far is not even close. For example, the most recently added citation [1], does not call the acts nuclear terrorism, but rather asks a question 'So who was the terrorist here? The "allies" who used the ultimate atomic weapon -- or was it the Japanese, who had launched the Pearl Harbor terrorist attack on the United States and whose wartime invasion of Asia was notable for its brutal tactics?' - but does not answer it to say that it was the allies who are terrorists. Two other points I'll make to you: (1) Please read and familiarize yourself with WP:CIVIL. Your recent edit summary was abusive, and editors may be blocked for such behaviour (2) 3RR is not an entitlement. Making statements like "Due to the 3RR rule I can't do anything about this right now (but I will continue to reinsert the sections in question at a later date). " indicates an intention to continue edit warring, and will get you reported and blocked even if you do not technically violate 3RR. Isarig 15:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC) +[reply]

I have produced 4 links, after having the first 2 challenged on tenuous grounds. Its clear to me that no matter how much I produce you and your allies will never accept the presence of an opposing viewpoint in this article. The question you quote is a Rhetorical question, I suggest you familiarise yourself with the concept.

You produced 4 links. The first two were rightly rejected as they were not WP:RS. The next two do not say what you claim. The CommonDreams article calls Fort Benning the capital of Nuclear Terrorism, but that's unrelated to Hiroshima. It says bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was evil, but does not once say that Hiroshima was nuclear terrorism. The Asia Media article also does not say what you claim, as I have shown. It is indeed a rhetorical question - one that explictly calls one attack "terrorist" - the Japanese one. You have claimed that the view that it was Nuclear Terroism is quite prevelant - so you should have no problem producing WP:RS that actually say it. Isarig 17:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the idea of a reputable source around here mainly revolves around being a representative of the mainstream US media, it is quite hard to find material that doesn't toe the American line. Nevertheless, I have found it, but have been met with constant vandalism of the article (deletion of the entire section, and thus the entire opposing view, is clearly vandalism). Damburger 15:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are bot incorrect with regards to what makes a WP:RS, and misleading with regards to what your sources say. Isarig 17:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And still there is no justification for deleting the entire section (beyond demonstrably false statements in the edit summary). How can I see this as anything other than vandalism if people refuse to discuss why they wish to remove this side of the argument from the article? I am deeply dissappointed at the level this has got to, with people trying to censor section and refusing to discuss the content at all. Damburger 15:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed outline for major revision

Greetings everyone. I'm planning on making a major revision to the page, incorporating information on nuclear terrorism from a number of sources. I'll work from books ( Graham Allison, Nuclear Terrorism, Ferguson and Potter, Four Faces of Nuclear Terrorism), papers ([2]), and official sources like the IAEA. I propose to outline it as such.

Definition of nuclear terrorism, including links to Radiological Dispersal Devices (Dirty Bombs) and attacks on nuclear power plants.
Incidents that might have been precursors to nuclear terrorism.
Scholarship on nuclear terrorism.
1. Early scholarship and how it has waxed and waned.
Efforts to prevent nuclear terrorism.
1. Proposals and official efforts.

Note if you think I'm missing anything--I plan to make this article about three times as long; see the above list for the extensive scholarship on the topic that this article hasn't even begun to mention. I will not get into the controversy about Hiroshima, though I may mention it toward the end. I would love input from anyone on these changes, which I plan to make next week.Mich112358 22:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As long as the controversy about Hiroshima is actually mentioned I'm happy. A lot of the editors are trying to purge any mention of it from the article.

I support this effort. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings though, I can't see them being actually purported as terrorism. Perhaps a note where it says "it has been suggested that the Hiroshima bombing was an instance of nuclear terrorism by *insert source*" because I think the commonly accepted position on that issue is that it was not terrorism for reasons already well stated.

My suggestion for the future direction of the article would be to very clearly point to articles that hit on the same issues such as Dirty bomb and default to those articles when appropriate.

Another thing, are there copyright tags that allow use of pictures straight from Homeland Security work like this [3] because I find them hilarious. theanphibian 03:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's be Honest (Far-Left Drivel Masquerading as Honesty)

The comments below are typical anti-American arrogance. Smug in the false security of far-Left brainwashing, this individual stumbles blindly along, oblivious to the most serious threat facing Western society since the Cold War.

71.208.224.199 14:53, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Whenever you hear a half-witted fuckwit from America bang on about the possibility of 'nuclear terrorism', it must surely be realised that they are probably 11 short of a dozen (I'm tempted to state more than this). The probability of someone making a *functioning* nuclear bomb and using that within a device on an American city is EXTREMELY unlikely. Yet the internet devotes several hundred thousand (nay, millions) of websites to this non-existent issue (non-existent in the reasonable sense that that a significant proportion of the world's population doesn't have enough nutritious food to feed itself, let alone - so nuclear weapons construction does seem to be off the cards for this portion of the human race).

Anyhow, the point that I have made is that US tax-payers shouldn't bother directing money towards preventing nuclear terrorism - because it's probably never going to happen.

Note : "Dirty bombs" don't really (or remotely) count as nuclear in any meaningful sense. If there was genuine concern about such devices - then why not ban almost every house-hold device containing anything remotely radioactive ('honey, the smoke detectors a potential threat to National Security'.....Jesus Christ....).

If making such a rant, please cite sources. Any information that you supposedly possess of the lack of danger of nuclear terrorism would be very useful for this article. Especially this assertion you make that a terrorist would have to build a bomb, rather than possibly just aquire one. Peoplesunionpro 20:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Use of radioactive materials by Soviet block secret services

See European Journal of Radiology, volume 63, "Ionizing radiation in secret services’ conspirative actions", Pages 263-269, by H. Vogel, P. Lotz and B. Vogel

In 1957, the physicians of a US- Military hospital stated that the secret agent Nikolaj Khokhlov, who had deserted from the USSR to the USA, had been killed with radioactive thallium.

General Pacepa, who had deserted to the West in 1978, reported in his memoirs in 1987 [5], that radiating substances for killing purposes belonged to the weapon arsenal of the Bulgarian secret service. In spring of 1970, the department K, a small department in the counterintelligence, included radioactive substances obtained from the KGB, in its weapons arsenal. The action “Radu” was ordered, to apply these for the assassination of the former foreign minister Kiraly.

The investigations of the British and the German authorities suggest that Dimitri Kovtun brought the Polonium-210 from Moscow to London via Hamburg. He contaminated his ex-wife, his children, and their apartment when he stayed with them in Hamburg. The ex-wife and the children stayed for the measurements of the Polonium-210 in Asklepiosklinik St. Georg, Hamburg. The proof that the contamination occurred during this visit and not during a former one of Kovtun or by another person could be made by identifying Polonium-210 also on the documents of the registration office in Hamburg, where Kovtun went to extend his residence permit. Furthermore Polonium-210 traces were found in the airplanes, in which Kovtun had traveled.

The incident with Litvinenko has also attracted comparisons to the poisoning by radioactive thallium of KGB defector Nikolay Khokhlov and journalist Shchekochikhin of Novaya Gazeta. A comparisonwas also made with Roman Tsepov whowas responsible for personal protection of Anatoly Sobchak and Putin [7] and who died in Russia in 2004 from poisoning by an unknown radioactive substance [1]. Biophys 05:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And the big question to Biophys after all, where in this source Litvinenko's, Shchekochikhin's murders are described as act of nuclear terrorism? Create article "Poisoning with radioactive materials" and do what you want. Insertion of these cases in the article titled "Nuclear terrorism" is clear original research. La poet 05:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]