User talk:Daufer

Indipendent?!?!? The RSI cannot decide nothing about its army or about its Foreign Policy, the head of state was decided by the Nazi, and the Nazi deported 650000 Italians to Germany —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.60.175.184 (talk) 06:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Kingdom of Italy was a member of the Axis - 1943. Mussolini, who never signed the Arnmistace, recovered a new independent ITALIAN state with the help of Hitler, the Italian Social Republic. Trieste and South Tyrol were under direct German Control but the RSI was Independent. The Allies never had an Italian state fighting for them, Rome was lost in 1944 not 1943. The RSI as a State had military units and over 50.000 Volounteers fighting the Allies - 1945.

As for your other states, if you can confirm that they were independent states like the RSI than add them. 650,000 Italians deported? Varify and specifie your source. The Italians that were deported, were not deported because they were italians, but because they were Jews, Gypsies, Communists, Partisans, Deserteurs and other INFERIOR people to the regime.

The number is 40000, I don't know why I wrote the other number. I hope you don't consider them inferior, anyway. The RSI could not decide anything without Nazi Approval. Bye, I must go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.60.175.184 (talk) 06:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why the RSI needs to be in the template is because its Historic. It would be a defermation of History to claim that Italy was Axis - 43 and was than a member of the Allies. Again, its very simple either all Italy remains or all Italy will be erased. Its a wrong assumption that the RSI was dependent on a "Nazi Approval", before the RSI, Italy was already an Axis member. Mussolini continued his policies after 1943 and Hitler was his allied just like before 1943. The difference was that now the front was not in a different country or continant, but within Italy. Thats the reason for the German Military pressence. The RSI, fought together with the Germans in Italy just like the Kingdom of Italy did in Russia, Balkans, North Africa and with Franco in spain. They were independent and allied with Germany - 1945.

It's not a wrong assumption, it's the truth. The RSI government could not even decide where to put its troops. Get a look at the article "Italian Social Republic" where it says "While Mussolini contended in public that he was in control of the RSI, he admitted to visitors in private that this state was a largely irrelevant and ineffective puppet of the German forces. Indeed, Mussolini was little more than the gauleiter of Lombardy. The RSI was mainly used for repression purposes against the Italian partisans and the Jews." I didn't write it, you can find the same information everywhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.60.175.184 (talk) 06:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Get yourself some real Literature about the RSI and inform yourself ( Zwischen Bündnis und Besatzung from Lutz Klinkhammer / Mussolinis Ende. Die Republik von Salo 1943 - 1945 from Karl Mittermaier / Mussolini's Last Republic: Propaganda And Politics In The Italian Social Republic 1943-1945 from Luisa Quartermaine - Elm Bank / Die Repubblica Sociale Italiana - Souveräner Staat oder Vasall? from Marcus Sonntag (this is the best and most detailed book about the status of the RSI). If your not to lazy, have fun reading them.

The RSI was an Independent state with its own Government etc. an Italian Regime. If you denie this than you are deforming history. Mussolini and Hitler were allies, i am not denying that Mussolini was the weaker member, and had to follow Germany for its purposes, but that doesnt change the fact that the RSi was its own state and and as such a member of the Axis. Again, bring one legitamate reason for why the RSI was not a member of the Axis or stop changing it.

Two of your books are available only in German. Your real literature isn't so popular... Coming back to reality, I'll summarize you the main events: Italy surrended The legal government fled south The Nazi took control of Northern Italy The Nazi freed Mussolini The Nazi put up a puppet state with Mussolini as head of state. The RSI was the continuation of nothing. Maybe it had some feature of a state, but for sure it was not independent. What did it do independently? You said that the racial law were the same. Maybe the laws, but not their application. And it did not have the same head of state. The rule of thumb to put a state on the list is: was it real or was it simply put up by the Nazi? Anyway, your RSI is already include in "others" 79.11.239.233 17:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should read the books first before you debate about the state status of the RSI. This is the OFFICIAL war declaration of the RSI, if you speak Italian. http://cronologia.leonardo.it/storia/a1943rrr.jpg The Germans were already in Italy when the Aermistace was made. Have you heard about Sicily, Salerno ? the Armistace was so pathetic and badly organised that it is de-facto worthless. The King and Badoglio had to flee from their falsly created capital and thus your "legal Governmant" abandoned itself. The Germans (that already were in italy: Kesselring) disarmned the Regio Esercito, but after talks with Mussolini and several Italian Generals that fled to Germany after the Armistace, a new Republic and Army was created by Italians and Germans and Governed by italians. And this state was a member of the Axis. Read some literature about the RSI, the titles i posted are just a recommendation.

You say "the Armistace was so pathetic and badly organised that it is de-facto worthless." Great! Let me apply your rule: "George W. Bush's election was so pathetic and badly organised that it is de-facto worthless." It's great to know that Al Gore is the president of the US. Anyway, the declaration of war says clearly that the RSI was not the continuation of the Kingdom of Italy: "La Repubblica Sociale Italiana è l'erede spirituale della Repubblica Romana". 87.9.233.14 19:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bush's presidency didnt end after a few months, and his Admin wasnt replaced by the predecessor Clintons Admin. Thats the Difference. After the Armistace, the kingdom of Italy broke off into 2 states, the RSI (Axis) and the Regno del Sud (Allies). If the RSI is not considered Axis than the RdS cant be considered Allies aswell. I said the RSI is the continuation of the Fascist Regno D'Italia because of its leaders. But i agree with you that it needs to be seperated and therefor specified as entered in 1943. All of this still doesnt change the fact that the RSI was an independent state and as such a member of the Axis. An example, The Germans wanted to add the RSI Air Force to the German Luftwaffe, Making it a branch of the Luftwaffe, the RSI however opposed that and succeeded in keeping its own Air Force.

I never said it was not a formal member of the Axis, but it's importance is so little (its soldier were mainly not used against the Allies) that it's sufficient to include it in "others". The importance of the Kingdom of Italy is that it's the predecessor of the present Italian Republic. 82.61.20.236 07:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Its not our job to judge the Importance of something, because its ones personal view and not within an historic context. When the RSI surrendered, it was both Wolff and Graziani that signed the paper(but it was in german). Your assumption of the RSI units not fighting the allies is wrong. Historic events The RSI SS Divisions fought at Anzio and Nettuno, with good results that Himmler granted them a higher status. The Liguria Army fought at the Gothic Line while the ITALIA division was attached to the 14th German Army. The RSI navy operated in the Black sea against the soviets, managing to lay mines and Frogmen managed to sink a submarine. The ANR (Air Force) was the most successful of them all despite being outnumbered and without german support they shot down 100+ allied planes, in the last year alone. Apart from this, the Black Brigades and X-MAS were Partisan Hunters, the Anti-Partisan operations were vital to the Germans and Fascists, becuse it was behind the frontlines, to clear the backs and secure the supply. RSI Italian SS Divisions "Debica" and "Vendetta" http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ssdepicavendettamp8.png

The main reason you offer for its importance is wrong! Graziani didn't sign anything! (Wolff had the power to sign for Graziani, and the forces of the RSI were not considered separated from the German forces). The Allies never recognised at any level the RSI, this is a fact. The list of the Axis states should be very longer to include every state, so a choice must be made. The German didn't trust the Italians after the Armistice and gave them the least power they could give, this is an other fact. Ah, 650000 was the number of Italian soldiers who were deported to Germany for having refused to join the RSI, 40000 were the civilians, now I have found the numbers. 87.14.233.137 10:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have read a little more on the argument, and now I know that a lot of self-declared fascists try to find a legitimacy for the RSI in a paper signed by Graziani included in the act (but not signed at Caserta). Listen, I don't want to start a discussion about such things. The RSI was not officially recognized by the Allies (they never wrote anywhere that such a state existed), and every history books written by someone who is not a fascist consider its military importance not very relevant (or simply negligible). So during the war it was not very important. And so it was after the war. The political inheritance of the RSI is almost inexistent (about 5% in post-war elections for the MSI). On the other side, the political inheritance of the Kingdom of Italy (whose military power was not very relevant between 1943 and 1945, too) is the present Italian Republic. That's all. 87.14.234.106 12:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again you are wrong: 1. Graziani did sign the surrender look at the Italian RSI Article there is a copy of it. 2. The Allies were the Enemies of the RSI, they didnt have to recognise it, all Axis states did recognise the RSI as a atate.

Italian soldiers were deported to German labour Camps (to work for the German war industry), But this scenario took place after the Armistace and within the Period of the Badoglio Reign when Badoglio and the King single handedly declared the Italians the enemies of the Germans. It had nothing to do with the RSI. Many of these soldiers were than trained in Germany and formed the RSI units. (more than 200,000). The SS divisions were from troops of the Russian front: XXXI Anti Tank Battalion Lombardia Division and Alpine Julia Division.

The 40,000 were inferior people to the RSI regime Jews Gypsies and Partisans etc. That is within the RSI context, but it was the RSI that captured and deported those people or allowed the Germans to deport them. They didnt trust the Italians? This is a pic of the two head ss commanders (italian left - german right) consulting eachother. http://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ssrsigo9.png

Again, Italians and Germans were Allies, they trusted eachother because they fought together a common enemy have you already forgotten the RSI war declaration? Than read it again. Again you talk nonsense, and again it has nothing to do with the status of the RSI. You talk about events that did not happen in the RSI and think it legitamates your uneducated view. Why do you deny this part of history so much? where are you from? You deform this history so much that i am asking myself what your purpous is?

Ok, there is some disturbance. I just read your new text. A definition of importance is ones own view and not an historic fact. You might not consider it important, and i never said it was important. I just say that its Historic and should be treated correctly. The Kingdom of Italy did not exist from 43-45. There was just the REGNO DEL SUD. Rome was the capital of the RSI - 44. I am not saying the RSI was important, i am just making sure that the Historic context is neutral, correct and given. Which is important in a public froum Like the Internet and Wikipedia.

Its name was "Kingdom of Italy", and it was the same state before 1943 and after 1945 (this is said by Italian law). It didn't control northern Italy, of course, and it had a very limitate independence in southern Italy, but I repeat, Italian and international law (not the Axis states, of course) have always recognised it as "Kingdom of Italy", with a nominal jurisdiction on the whole Italy. Historical facts can be more or less relevant, and I cited the facts which give more relevance to the Kingdom of Italy (in practice, the fact that its successor still exists). I repeat, the RSI is included in "others", and not cancelled from history. 87.14.234.106 13:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kingdom of Italy - Mussolini + VE III

ARMISTACE - Badoglio + VE III

|                   |

RSI ---- Regno del Sud

The Kingdom of Italy didnt exist anymore, and rome was the RSI - 45 and not Regno d'Italia.

Croatia and Germany are also in the Others and on the Template. Just the others isnt good enough for me. I said in the beginning have fun adding the other states. And either all italy stays or all Italy will be removed. the Regno del Sud was put up by the Allies.

I don't know why you say that the Kingdom of Italy was put up by the Allies. Badoglio's government was the same before and after the Armistice. Of course it didn't control all Italy, and it had to be moved in southern Italy because the German didn't accept Italy's defeat, but it was the same, same men, same government. Maybe considering RSI not relevant enough for the list is not good enough for you, but the fact is that it was not so relevant. 87.14.234.106 14:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Regno del Sud was put up by the Allies. The Regno D'Italia was put up by garibaldi and VE II.

Badoglio had a government from 25. July - 10 Sep. 1943. The Kingdom of Italy was a member of the Allies for 1 week, from 3. Sep. - 10 Sep. 1943. Specifie on template or i will delete because of incorrectness.

The RSI was an own state and Historic and therefor belongs on the Template.

I really don't know why you consider that the Kingdom of Italy ended its existence on 10 Sep. 1943. Maybe you don't like what happened next, but it was the Kingdom of Italy. 87.14.234.106 14:24, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What was the Kingdom of Italy? In order for something to be the Kingdom of Italy it would need a King to Rule Italy. But the King fled rome 10. Sep. 1943. The King abandoned his own Kingdom. So again what was the Kingdom of Italy? The Fascist Dictatorship of Mussolini, Graziani and Wolff? They were in control of Rome. There was no more King present. The King now ruled over the Regno del Sud.

OK, it's a matter of opinion (mine is supported by Italian law). Anyway, this doesn't change the fact that the RSI is not so relevant. 87.14.234.106 14:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The post-war Italian law. And your personal relevance. Historic fact is that the RSI existed, and was its own state and as such a member of the axis. You still havent explained where you are from and what your purpous is.