Talk:Brown-eyed soul
Dubious list
What is this.... a joke???? Tony Bennett is a pop/jazz performer and a good one. Connie Francis is a pop/rock & roll(oldies)/Italian ballad singer of the early 60's...Bloodstone is an African-American R&B group (google their cover) The same with War led by Lee Oskar - please see their videos on youtube... Jim Croce is a singer/songwriter. If you are going to list anyone... Here's a nice temporary list.... Tierra, Natalie, Frankie J, etc... Bloodstone and War may have been listed because they had some Latin influence...then if that's the case - might as well list African-American artist, Debelah Morgan (Dance With Me)...which would make this list seem questionable.
"Soul" is not a term to be thrown about loosely. According to the Rolling Stone Illustrated History Of Rock last published in 1993. "Soul" probably began as rhythm and gospel and the earliest artists were Sam Cooke, Ray Charles, Clyde McPhatter & Ben E. King who were both lead singers of the Drifters, and the Isley Brothers. "Soul" music came from the African American gospel churches (e.g. the original version of "Shout.") So crooners that were on this list were omitted because they have nothing to do with "soul." The others I left on are actually doo-wop artists not "soul artists." Doo-Wop is an older style that owes a lot more to the Mills Brothers, The Ink Spots, The Orioles and The Ravens.
Deleted Dean Martin and some others as well... If you are going to list a crooner such as Martin...then list Frank Sinatra and also Sammy Davis Jr.- then the entire list will be bogus...Dean Martin's idols were Bing Crosby and Perry Como - incidentally you might as well include the latter since he too is Italian... Really - Martin specialized in big band standards and pre-rock pop music.
Frankie Valli shouldn't be deleted - after all they had 2 number ones on the R&B charts in 1962 but technically they were a doo-wop act.
I don't want to come in and start editing it...So please check your sources before putting stuff in...."Use Wikipedia to start."
Added Amanda Perez to the list.
20:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Definition?
What exactly IS the page supposed to be about? Why is Jennifer Lopez on ANY sort of "soul" page? Is it because she is Latina? If so, then why not Eydie Gorme, who actually had some soul sound besides being Latina to boot? I would put her plus The New York Dolls in there. The Dolls started as a Latin/Soul band, check their history. Their original drummer was Colombian, a guitarist was Sicilian, and another guitarist is/was Sfaradim. I would say there is no "soul music" anymore, the person's ethnicity was never the defining factor, and samplers/"beats" come more from Avant-Guarde. The shrieking of "neo-soul" comes from the likes of Yoko Ono, more AG. Twisted Sister could fit in the catagory of BES as Dee Snider is heavily gospel influenced(ex-choirboy)("Iam, I'm me!") and has gospel turns and codas in his music as well. Don't forget Eddie Ojeda who is Latino.
IMNSHO, the topic is a waste of space.JBDay (talk) 18:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Agree with you
I put the first comment on the board...and I believe this page should be deleted...Need real proof...There are Latin R&B Singers, even though some of these bands listed are actually either latin rockers or latino garage bands....And the majority of the Italian groups here are doo-wop artists which is entirely different from "soul." It requires a more structured style of singing... Less free-form... However I disagree with what you consider 'soul.' - since your arguments are really subjective. I don't consider power chords a part of soul.. or 'blame it on the bossa nova' as soul music...or any of Yoko's singing - that is probably your opinion. Singing in a gospel choir doesn't make one a soul singer... If one applies that logic - then Jimmy Swaggart probably qualifies as well...
Since today's soul or the better termed (R&B) is probably more or less hip-hop based. Soul music emerged with The Civil Rights Movement in the late 50's through the 60's. It was the music of the churches in Black America that was incorporated with the r&b music of the time. The best definition comes from the Rolling Stone's History Of Rock & Roll last published in 1993.
20:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Damning with faint praise
I think the catagory of "Brown-Eyed Soul" is more or less an attempt to provide a catchall for several FORMERLY related and FORMERLY existant styles. I do not see J.Lo as being BES as I do not consider samples/vocoders soul. If someone such as her who has more in common with a terrible lounge singer or female impersonator is BES, then a band which has real roots in Italian/Latin/Gospel such as TS belongs there as well. Reread my post and you will see that I was NOT saying that Yoko Ono is any form of soul. I was saying that the modern stuff with samples that is passed off as soul/r'n'b is more like her than real soul music. Being black doesn't make soul music. As for soul's origins, it basically was an amalgam of Italian/Latin/as well as black. I don't agree with The definition you mentioned. I was in the thick of things back then as a child and I know that Italian opera/choral music had an influence on soul. The Latin thing as well. The race thing came about because of segregation, now all are free to be aurally assaulted by screeching melismatics backed by computer thuds regardless of ethnicity. Hiphop comes from deejays who were into Kraftwerk, a most non-soulful thing if I've ever heard one. Jimmy Swaggart is more soulful that that anyday. The race thing is a dead end as far as what actually matters in music. I would also consider Vanilla Fudge to have been Brown-Eyed Soul. The topic is frozen in time and ought be deleted.JBDay (talk) 23:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Response
Do you have any proof on that....I never read anything that Italians/Latins invented soul music... As far as I'm concerned-it came from the Gospel World. I would like to read that.... Again 'soul' is subjective not objective....Music that came from the church that was integrated with the so called 'race' music at the time became soul music....Today's R&B is more hip-hop/electronic/sample based rather than 'soul' based...There are some 'soul' singers around..I would definitely use the term R&B more so than 'soul.' The music existed before Vanilla Fudge, The Rascals, etc... IT was with Ray Charles, Sam Cooke, in the late 50s.... Charles was ostracized for bringing church music into the secular world...
There is a complete article on 'soul' music - and if you insert what you have down...it would most likely be challenged...I get my information through history books and I aced my two classes on rock & roll history in college. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.210.66 (talk) 00:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Regarding Hip-Hop - it came from the Jamaicans who emigrated to New York City...The Kraftwerk-type beats came a few years later in the 80's...(around 1982)... The Jamaicans introduced the art of talking over music beds...and the rest is history...The first rap songs were done generally over disco beats not electronic beats... The first so-called rap hit was done over a disco/funk beat (Nile Rodgers/Bernard Edwards). There was no previous history before that maybe with groups with a jazzier inclination such as the Last Poets....etc.
I agree with one thing...this article does needs to be deleted.
00:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Expert Needed
Flagged this one - need someone to look over this article...Any music columnists/historians out there?
02:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Don't you mean "ExpertS?"
I'd say that a definition of just what BES is has to be established. Until then, and possibly even after, it will be like the proverbial blind men asked to describe an elephant. They all describe it differently, as they each have hold of a different body part. It will be like those who falsely say that rock and roll came directly from country and blues, rubbish that ignores historical movements of both culture and population as well. I'm sure those who conflate anything done by blacks as r'n'b/soul/whatever will take over the topic and ruin it. Original soul was gospel played profanely which would make Jerry Lee Lewis a soul pioneer if only as a precedent. He got kicked out of church for playing gospel as boogie, would any of the "beatz"-promoting Kraftwerk fans allow him that? I seriously doubt it. He's Creole, and so is soul.JBDay (talk) 04:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Correct
Experts.... Again this topic is subjective it is only opinion that drives this article...Actually this article with correct information should be a subset of a broader category such as "rhythm and blues." About the origins of Rock N Roll - there are far too many roads that led to the development it wasn't just country and blues... Regarding Jerry Lee Lewis - there is nothing I know that he was Creole - where is the source of that information. Also where is the source of the information that "Soul" is Creole. Labeling things need to have some evidence.... Obviously if not...then it is just an opinion just like this article. Jerry Lee Lewis...was a lot like his sun label mates - Elvis, Carl Perkins, and his southern cohorts such as Buddy Holly - doing the so called 'race' music at the times - because they loved it....So Elvis must've had soul as well because he did an entire gospel album in 1965....That's why I need credible evidence.
Conveniently ignoring the Civil Rights Movement in America and the segregation problem in the South seems to be part of this reasoning. If "People Get Ready" by the Impressions or "A Change Is Gonna Come" by Sam Cooke is not convincing enough for anybody and claiming that Deep Purple on another article (Rhythm & Blues) as part of an R&B argument.
I have no problems of flagging this article and the others for "experts" to review.
04:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Definition
Well, there is plenty on the net that JLL is Creole. Elvis was Melungeon, a creole (small "c") group in itself. "Race Music" was basically a marketing gimmick, and those you mentioned admitted to diverse influences. It's not the old white liberal/black nationalist argument that blacks started something and whites stole it from them, that is rubbish. As for Elvis, he had more soul than any hundred melismatics shrieking over computer thuds nowdays.
No ignorance of those two perfect examples of SOUL on my part. I'm very aware of the CRM amd segregation, you might say I was closer than most. I would claim Deep Purple as R&B far more than I would shrieking melismatics backed by computer thuds with mumbling, scowling, grunting fast-talkers as same.
Soul itself was the proverbial sea that takes up into its bosom all the rivers that run into it and dissolves them into one.JBDay (talk) 17:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)