Talk:Sherden

Photo image of Shardana

Does anyone have a public image of the Shardana that can be used in this article. Unfortunately the Photos I took at Medinet Habu in November have not turned out satisfactory enough to use in this aticle. John D. Croft 12:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Edit war arising?

I find User:80.171.10.248 is doing quite a lot complex edits. They seem valuable (apart from a couple of unencyclopedic remarks that should have better left to this page), but these edits also seem to delete otherwise valuable information. I'd like this user to sign up to the Wikipedia and discuss his/her changes on this page. In the meantime I'd try to merge old and new information in the hope of creating a more informative page. --Cyclopia 18:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

older

Could someone put this into English? -- Zow

Babelfish returns enough to see it's about a Biblical story:

"SHARDANA, the PEOPLE Of the SEA. The new book of Leonardo Melis, that it tells of the coalition of Sea Peoples that devastarono in II the millenium a.C. empires EGIZIO, ITTITA, MICENEO and CRETES. The tribe passing of DAN that lead Israel outside from Egypt (Sher-dan = DAN PRINCIPLES). The Sardinia as Giza (nuraghes Sardinian represents the Greater Orsa!). The Shardana knew the compass! The Vichinghi descendants of the Sher-Dana. The Ireland colonized from the Tuatha-de-dan (DAN PEOPLE). The Shardana and the Bible (constructors of Arca and the Tempio di Salomone)... Shardanaleo www.shardana.org"

Quoting the article:

"Anyhow, little serious literature is available on the topic, due to the very few valid elements available; most of what recently published seems to be more related to local nationalistic or however political purposes."

Wikipedia policy is that all articles should have a neutral point of view. According to Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". This clearly does not apply to the text in the article.

It is true that some of the literature (especially the internet-based literature) is "related to local nationalistic or however political purposes", due to the naturally renewed pride that this new interpretation of archeological facts inspires in Sardinians. An example is the www.shardana.org website mentioned above, whose author is an active independentist politician and no professional archeologist.

On the other hand, there is plenty of scientific literature associating Shardana with Sardinia. In fact, in recent years there has been much talk and much wider agreement on this topic, which clearly has not made it into the widespread literature quite yet, although for decades even Sardinia travel guides have mentioned a possible relationship with the Shardana.

One of the problems is that the long uncontested scientific authority in nuragic history, Giovanni Lilliu (the archeologist who uncovered the remains of the great Barumini nuragic village), instilled in the scientific community the false notion that the nuragic people did not sail, in fact, that they were "afraid of the sea", misinterpreting as a consequence the whole nuragic culture and history, and clearly denying the association of Sardinia with the Shardana, People of the Sea (also called in the egyptian inscriptions "People of the Islands of the West", and "People of the Islands of the Great Green" - i.e., the Western Mediterranean).

Giovanni Lilliu wrote his most authoritative book in 1963, when little scientific evidence was available on neolitic and paleolitic Sardinia. He is now over 90, and has only admitted some of his mistakes, though commenting a recent re-edition of the book he said "mine is an historical interpretation, not a technical one", in a clear attempt to justify the descrepancy of his theories with the scientific evidence that has emerged since.

There is much evidence, in fact, proving that the ancient Sardinians were actively sailing across the whole Mediterranean Sea, and which connects them with the Shardana. For example: - Cycladic statues: showing not only "stunning similarity" (as generally reported, without any additional comment) with Sardinian marble statues dating back to the 5th millennium BC, but an unmistakable common identity (even more so in the less known male figurines, showing soldiers carrying the same dagger as nuragic bronzetti, the famous bronze votive statues found in nuraghi all over Sardinia). - Nuragic ships, (hundreds of bronze votive ships found in Sardinia) found depicted in pottery from Skyros and in a Phoenician relief. These ships are very similar to those depicted in the Medinet Habu sea battle. - Unit-size Bronze ingots found all over the Mediterranean Sea and in nuragic forge-shops and minerary sites - Nuragic Bronzetti, showing Sardinian soldiers with the horned helmets and round shields, very distinctive (in fact, unique in the ancient mediterranean cultures), which, again, match the depiction of Shardana soldiers in Egyptian records. - The Nora Inscription, found in southern Sardinia, reports in phoenician letters the words "B SHRDN", "In Shardana"

The only argument, though strongly held by some, against the connection of nuragic bronze statues with the matching features found elsewhere in the mediterranean is that the bronze statues have been dated (so far) between the 9th and 5th century BC. This is clearly not a good argument, for several reasons: - if the dating is correct, bronze was used to forge the statues after the iron age had begun in the mediterranean sea, probably showing a "fallback" use of the minerary resources and metallurgic skills. However, the features are identical and the style very similar to those represented in marble statues dating back to 5th millennium thru the 2nd, showing that the bronze statues may represent historical and mytological figures (in fact, four-eyed soldiers and mytological animal figures are often represented). - the bronze statues were largely found to have a votive function in the southern part of the island of Sardinia, where most nuraghi seem to have been completely destroyed by some natural disaster (likely an inundation or flooding of the Campidano plane which occurred around 1000 BC) - only 60 out of an accounted 8000 nuraghi (and an estimated 12000 - an incredible defense network of towers with each having a direct line of sight with 1 to 3 other nuraghi!) in Sardinia have been at least partially excavated, which suggests that much more evidence is waiting to be uncovered. Moreover, most of the 500+ bronzetti were not recovered in-situ, making an accurate dating very hard.

Problems of the Shardana-Sardinia hypothesis

There is still few high-quality academic literature (as most of the articles of wilkipedia should be bases on "academic literature" available on the topic, due to the very few valid elements available; in the eyes of some students, most of what recently published seems to be more related to local nationalistic or however political purposes (which are?). Perhaps, the most serious discussions might regard some hypotheses that have been proposed about the supposedly related origins of Vikings' ships.(the most serious discussion about how the shardana (2500 bc till 1200 bc) had contacts with the vikings (700-880 ca).

This theory has however been discredited by some authors.

Your sources, please

Some authors? Who? Why do not you write your sources? Everybody knows that the Etruscan language gave origin to the Runic language. So, why we cannot accept the Shardana influence? There were many contacts between the Sardinians and the Etruscans during the 1st millennium BCE, and the Sardinians/Shardanas could have influenced the "viking" culture (meaning the culture of the ancient folks of Scandinavia, of course!) by the Etruscans. Besides reading: "Shardana i Principi di Dan" by Leonard Melis take a look at this link: "Alla diffusione dell’alfabeto etrusco si deve l’origine alle Rune, diffuse prevalentemente in Svezia (Sweden), ma anche in Danimarca (Denmark), Norvegia (Norway), alcune sulle isole della Frisia, una sessantina nel Regno unito (in U.K.) e 6 (tra le più antiche) in Romania (carried by Goths)." The Etruscan influence is a fact. http://www.associazioneozone.net/territorio/ricerca-e-valorizzazione/articolo-desempio/ --Billy 19:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence

Because of disinformation, I cut the article. I am reporting here the lines I deleted.

"The Shardana ultimately derive from Ionia, in the central west coast of Anatolia, from which they migrated to Sardinia."

Archaeologically speaking there is no evidence that they were Ionians. This is not proved and we can support the contrary too, that's, the Shardanas went from Sardinia to Anatolia! Read the books written by Professor Ugas Giovanni, who studied under Prof. Lilliu, the most experienced archaeologist in this field, or go directly to: http://www.sardiniapoint.it/5085.html

"Furthermore, recent studies by geneticists on the DNA of inhabitants of the inner areas of the island confirm the presence of elements which are in common with those of people from Anatolia, namely y-haplogroup G. These theoretical coincidences (enforced, as said, by linguistic considerations) could allow one to assume that a people of skilled sailors left the Eastern Mediterranean and established themselves in Sardinia."

Again, it does not demonstrate their origin, nor that they were "oriental" folks. Genetically and linguistically speaking other elements can be found and work as a common denominator between the Shardanas/Sardinians and, for example, the folks of the Basque countries. Language and DNA should be considered as interesting coincidences or as a proof of influence, not as a proof of their birthplace. Also we don't know when this influence started (before during or after the Phoenician Era, the Roman Age, Bisantium etc... when?)

"They very probably would have encountered some resistance on their way there. It is also possible that they were explorers. If so, it is likely that only a warrior people like the Shardana could have organised such an expedition."

In fact, this is possible. If we consider the stone and bronze statues of the XIII-VIII century BCE, the weapons, the buildings etc. we can find more coincidences in Sardinia than in Anatolia! In conclusion, we would be obliged to claim that the Shardanas were western folks, not oriental ones.

Read http://www.sardiniapoint.it/5087.html and page http://www.repubblica.it/online/cultura_scienze/mediterraneo/uno/uno.html --Billy 20:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Billy, these articles are in Italian. Can you provide a rough translation for tose of us who cannot speak or read this language. John D. Croft 12:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Billy, could you elaborate on these genetic similarities between the people of Sardinia and the Basques? I find this very interesting as recent genetic testing the seeks to explore the history of the peoples of Neolithic Sardinia has yielded four clusters that match closely with people who are of Iberian ancestry with possible connections to the Basque.

Sherden/Sheriden Redirect

I think Sherden/Sheriden should redirect to this page as well. I was looking for this page last week but couldn't find it until i stumbled upon it today. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.211.249.230 (talk) 19:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Semitic Sharden

I have deleted the discussion on Semitic Sharden from the page (as it is more speculative and not in suitable encyclopedia format), and included it here so it does not get lost. Hopefully it can be reworked and some mention then made in the page. John D. Croft 04:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

SEMITIC SHARDANA, "Peoples of the Sea"

- The people who created the thousands of nuraghi, cone shaped structures that have become the symbol of Sardinia, have been the subject of a good deal of speculation. A book recommended to me by sardinian scholars, -LEONARD MELIS, "SHARDANA I POPOLI DEL MARE", has been helpful because of its extensive documentation. The people known as "peoples of the sea", according to Melis, are the shardana,, who gave Sardinia its name. The shardana were semites, whom Melis identifies as the lost tribe of Dan, a semitic tribe who venerated a dark mother. Fleeing a three hundred year famine in Ur (Mesopotamia) the shardana expanded after 2300-2000 BCE into the anatolian peninsula, then into central and northern Europe, leaving clues to their presence in names; e.g., along the Danube (Dan) and the Dnieper (Dn) rivers, into the Baltic and Scandinavia, and into Ireland ("Danny Boy"). Another group of these semitic shardana went south to Syria and the Dead Sea, then into Greece, Crete, Sicily, Corsica, and Sardinia (where they settled). and thence, in a reprise of early african migrations , to the northern coast of Africa. According to Melis, the shardana arrived in Sardinia 2300 – 2000 BCE, about the same time they arrived in Tuscany and Latium on the mainland of Italy,as well as on the Balearic islands off Spain, and on Crete and Cyprus. For this essay, it is sufficient to note that these semites, like everyone else, were african in origin, and revered a woman divinity. The woman divinity of the shardana is glimpsed in bronze age cruciform figurines of a female and in many statuettes offering her nurturing breasts- - figurines very similar to those on other african migration paths in Europe. The "peoples of the sea"/shardana have been described as violent; but this is unclear because the 7000 bee-hive shaped megalithic structures (nuraghi) associated with shardana settlements have no evidence of weapons. The shardana are enigmatic; their warrior shields resemble women's breasts, with nipples. Icons of shardana warriors feature four eyes; Dianne Jenett pointed out to me that four eyes are characteristic of the earlier eye goddess of Tell Brak of Iraq (ca. 3000 BCE)(3) The point at hand for mediterranean, sardinian, sicilian, italian , and world history, is that the shardana, in Sardinia, an island which archeologists regard as a museum of the prehistory of Europe, venerated a dark mother, whom Melis calls Mater Mediterranea. The connection with african beliefs is suggested in that menhirs and dolmens were central icons of nuragic communities. Figurines of women in nuragic communities hold the solar disk, symbol of african veneration of the sun; hold their breasts in an african nurturant gesture, and there is evidence that they engaged in african water rituals. . Nuraghi of Sardinia resemble sanctuaries in Zimbabwe in Africa. In Sardinia, the belief in the dark mother and her values appears to be continuous from prehistory to the present. Ancient caves where early african migrants lived were later called domus de Janus by the romans; today these caves are popularly considered dwellings of women with supernatural powers. In Sardinia the early christian church at Saccargia was originally megalith in form . Inside the church at Saccargia (rebuilt in the middle ages),we saw two black madonnas. - for more details: Lucia Chiavola Birnbaum Dark Mother, Dark Others, and a new World Case of Sardinia Societes of Peace: 2nd World Congress on Matriarchal Studies San Marcos and Austin, Tezas (USA) - September 29/30 - ½ Otctober 2005 WEBSITE: http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/birnbaum.html