Talk:Far-right politics in Serbia

Note

I've removed this text

In October 2007, 56 members on Nacionalni stroj were arrested after an open protest against the independence of Kosovo. The Obraz Fatherland Movement has been accused of being a clerical fascist organization.

due to the two facts:

• first sentence is not supported by a reference i.e. the link is defunct
• second sentence is someone's claim - not an evidence

--Standshown 16:41, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, I removed this text completely

Serbian Radical Party leader Tomislav Nikolić has denied the existence of neo-Nazis in the country despite Chetnik collaborations during World War II.

http://www.bhserbia.org/ http://www.nacionalnistroj.org/

The sentence is illogical as a whole, and irrelevant in its first part to this topic. The links given here are out of the context.--Standshown (talk) 22:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Before a vandal got to it, it said "Serbian Radical Party leader Tomislav Nikolić has denied the existence of neo-Nazis in the country." It's of great relevance when the controversial leader of the biggest party in the country denies the existence of Neo-Nazis within that country. --Thewanderer (talk) 22:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Reliability of the sources

I've removed this reference http://www.kuda.org/?q=sr/node/247 as unreliable one for its claim:

Situacije na antifašističkoj sceni su u Srbiji i Nemačkoj dijametralno različite. U Nemačkoj su antifašističke organizacije podržane od strane državnih institucija. Time su neofašističke organizacije pomerene na društvenu marginu. U Srbiji je situacija obrnuta. Ekstremno desne i fašističke organizacije imaju, ako ne otvorenu, onda prikrivenu podršku državnih institucija, desnih političkih partija, Univerziteta, SANU i Srpske pravoslavne crkve. Stoga su Srbiji antifašističke inicijative i organizacije upravo te koje su marginalizovane.

As per Wikipedia definition of reliable resource [1]

Aspects of reliability Further information: Wikipedia:Verifiability

Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made.

The Serbian language text quoted above apparently fails the fact-checking and accuracy test. Here I found a number of internationally recognized reliable sources of information showing that:

• Neo-Nazis are not on the social and political margine in Germany - contrary to the claim above U Nemačkoj su antifašističke organizacije podržane od strane državnih institucija. Time su neofašističke organizacije pomerene na društvenu marginu. Moreover National Democratic Party, widely branded as a Neo-Nazi party in Germany is a legal party and has their representatives in the federal and provincial parliaments in Germany.

• Number of Neo-Nazi attacks in Germany is far above of those in Serbia. These incidents in Germany and attacks draw attention even of the UN.

• Claim that Neo-Nazis in Serbia are supported by Serbian political parties and the Serbian Orthodox Church is not documented nor found in any other reliable source of information.

Moreover we see that the Serbian government persecutes Neo-Nazis and prohibits their activities and that the Neo-Nazis are not in the Serbian political life present officially.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=3528253&page=1

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-152945479.html

Violent neo-Nazi attacks in Germany from January to August this year reached a total of 452, wounding 325 people as compared to 363 such attacks in which 302 people were injured in the same period in 2005. There was a corresponding rise in the number of attacks by far-right militants, with almost 8,000 crimes reported in the first eight months of 2006, compared to 6,605 crimes reported for the same period in 2005.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,357628,00.html

Most young right-wingers, both in the West and the East, are not willing to engage in violence, but they do prepare the ground for skinheads and thugs. The first effects of this process are already being felt. In its annual report issued last week, the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution notes that neo-Nazi groups have experienced growth rates in excess of 25 percent. The number of crimes and violent acts committed by right-wing extremists is also growing, as is the frequency of skinhead concerts. Minister of the Interior Otto Schily says that the increasingly aggressive right-wing extremist movement is cause "for great concern."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1526424,00.html

The report on racism, xenophobia and discrimination placed a special focus on extreme right parties in eastern Germany, saying that it was "particularly worrying" that rightwing extremist parties such as the National Democratic Party (NPD) increased public support in recent state elections through racist slogans.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de%7Dnpd.html

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1348896,00.html

Emboldened by recent regional election gains, Germany's far-right NDP party is pressing on. With an eye on upcoming national elections, the party has recruited prominent neo-Nazis for top leadership positions.

Germany's far-right National Party (NPD), which made headlines last month when it won 9.2 percent of the vote in regional elections in the eastern state of Saxony, is pressing on with its efforts to enter the national government. Looking ahead to upcoming federal elections in 2006, the NPD has recruited two prominent neo-Nazis for high-ranking leadership positions.

--Standshown (talk) 23:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

False statement removed

I've removed this sentence that shall be interpreted as (intentional) misinterpretation of the reference or a bad faith edit

In November 2007, Blood and Honour's Serbian leader Dragan Petrović announced that members of the organization would take part in celebrations of the German Nazis' Kristallnacht, being held in Prague.[10]

From the reference it is clear that Petrović did not announce anything - there is only a speculation of the Dnevni list that this man could support his comrades in the Czech Republic.

Tijesne veze s češkim neonacistima, prije svega ilegalnim češkim Narodnim otporom, održavaju i njihovi srpski istomišljenici, a kao veza im služi Dragan Petrović, zvani Bajba, iz srpskog ogranka organizacije Krv i čast, koji je oženjen Čehinjom i živi u Pragu. Petrović, koji je prema tvrdnjama češke policije, suviše kontroverzan i za češku ekstremističku scenu, uspješno je mobilizirao neonaciste iz Slovačkog zajedništva da prije mjesec dođu dana na fašističku demonstraciju u Novi Sad gdje je srpska policija jedanaestoricu Slovaka privela i protjerala iz Srbije.

--Standshown (talk) 13:26, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Antisemitism

Additions like

In 2003, Nikolaj Velimirović was canonized by the Serbian Orthodox Church. Velimirović is widely accused of being anti-semitic. Many right-wing and Orthodox organizations is Serbia cite Velimirović as an inspiration.

are not related to the neo-nazism topic. Please, adhere to the valid definition of neo-nazism. --Standshown (talk) 01:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Consistency

Removed as being out of topic (was already removed by other user) - it shall go into an article about neo-fascism.

Obraz

The Obraz Fatherland Movement is classified as a clerical fascist organization by the Serbian Ministry of the Interior. The group has come out in support of Nacionalni stroj. In December 2007 the group's members attempted to interrupt Human Rights Day celebrations on Republic Square with chants of Ustaše, Kill the faggots and There willl be meat, we will massacre the Croats among others. The group also sang songs from the collaborationist Chetnik World War II movement.

--Standshown (talk) 21:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Only fascist movement in Serbia were Nazis and Serbian collaborators and quislings to the Nazis. Therefore, Neo-fascism in Serbia is equivalent to Neo-Nazism in Serbia. --Thewanderer (talk) 21:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

See Neo-Nazism. Your point of view is not relevant.--Stagalj (talk) 02:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Obraz is complicit in Neo-Nazism. It supports the other Neo-Nazi groups in Serbia, and cites the father of Serbian-Nazi collaboration, Dimitrije Ljotic, as one of its ideologues. --Thewanderer (talk) 16:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Not supported by given references. It is just your point of view.--Stagalj (talk) 23:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Obraz again

I removed this paragraph completely due to the fact that

The Obraz Fatherland Movement is classified as a clerical fascist organization by the Serbian Ministry of the Interior.

i.e. cannot be seen as a Neo-Nazi organization. Also, the text

In December 2007 the group's members attempted to interrupt Human Rights Day celebrations on Republic Square with chants of Ustaše, Kill the faggots and There willl be meat, we will massacre the Croats among others. The group also sang songs from the collaborationist Chetnik World War II movement.

comes from the biased Croatian source Extremists in Belgrade: We'll massacre the Croats - which claims cannot be found in any impartial and valid source. To keep it here is, therefore, against the Wikipedia's neutral point of view.

--Standshown (talk) 02:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be a legitimate point of view expressed in other sources as well. [2][3][4][5][6] --Strothra (talk) 02:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• Far from legitimate. Before claiming that something is a reference - you are obliged to read the 'reference' and understand the 'reference' content. So
  • Your first and second reference are the same article. The only text about Obraz is 'A second far-right group Obraz (Face) had announced that it would organise a march in support of the National Front'. Far-right is not Neo-Nazi ultimately
  • Your third reference says: Velimirovic is the spirit behind several nationalist organizations: Obraz (or Otcastveni Pokret Obraz − Face), a well-organized ultra-rightist . Ultra-rightist is not Neo-Nazi
  • Your fourth reference does not make difference between Neo-Nazism and Fascism: in that sense, particular attention was paid to the neo-Nazi movement Obraz as the avant-garde of a possible rebirth of fascism in Serbia).
  • Your fifth reference says: ...and “Obraz” is a fascistic organization - again not Neo-Nazi
  • Neither of your references supports claim comming from the Croatian 'source' above.

--Standshown (talk) 02:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)