Talk:Catholicity

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Regarding the Roman Catholic Church

I have removed and replaced the following POV material from the opening paragraphs:

The Catholic Church is today widely referred to as the Roman Catholic Church, even by many Catholics themselves, but this is a misnomer. The Roman qualifier is a relatively recent (ca. 1580) invention by Protestant Christians, to attempt to posit the church as a Roman variant of the universal (i.e., Catholic) church, whereas the Catholic Church considers itself the universal Catholic Church.

The "Catholic Church" was Latin and Roman well before the Protestant Reformation; it has been so at least since the Great Schism. The development of the pretensions of the Papacy is a complicated historical topic, but for a good part of the history of Christianity, Rome was a backwater, in a devastated and depressed area. It was only after the decline of Byzantium that the see of Rome was able to assert itself. In any case, omission of Roman is inherently POV, as this paragraph makes clear, and offensive to those Christians, Anglicans, Orthodox, and others, who are not Roman Catholics, but feel a part of the catholic Church. This article is about Roman Catholicism. It should be moved to Roman Catholicism, which would make this moot. What defines Roman Catholicism, or "Catholicism" according to Roman Catholics, is acceptance of the claims of the Bishop of Rome. It is therefore right to call Roman Catholics Roman Catholic, and misleading or wrong to omit the Roman. -- Smerdis of Tlön 04:15, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This article is most definitely not about Roman Catholicism. It is a about Catholicism. More needs to be added about Anglo-Catholicism and others who also define themselves as Catholic but not Roman Catholic. Any move to Roman Catholicism would make no sense because it would require the removal or sections that are not about Roman Catholicism and about explaining the context of different strands of Catholicism. But as Roman Catholicism is by far the biggest strand of those who describe themselves as Catholic, and is what the vast majority of people of all religions and none think of when they hear the word catholic, it is quite natural that it would have by far the largest segment devoted to it. FearÉIREANN 05:04, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree - changing the name would only confuse. Roman Catholicism is definately the largest, and the doctrinal differences are too minor. Thanks Jtdirl. Ihcoyc if you think the issue needs to be addressed in the article or in another, feel free to add more than what is there. It may also be interesting to add the "universal" meaning of the word "catholic" to the Christianity page. -Visorstuff 05:32, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

As the writer of the above-quoted paragraph, I fail to see its POV-ness. Thank you for adding the citation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, IHCOYC, but I suggest you go a little further. Search the CCC (and earlier catechisms for that matter) for the term "Roman Catholic" - it does not appear in the Catechism. There are references to the "Roman Church", the Roman Rite (which is what many Catholics mean by Roman Catholic, by the way), the Roman Catechism, etc., but not once does the Catechism acknowledge something called the Roman Catholic Church. The correct name is the Catholic Church. I intend to add an article about the history of the incorrect term. Harris7 22:31, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Of course it will not occur in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, because the POV of that Catechism and the church it represents is that Catholicism equals Romanism, and acceptance of the claimed authority of the Pope is for them not the definition of a particular sectarian organisation, but a central part of Christian revelation; those who reject his claims are deficient in their faith.

This article, however, should not endorse that particular POV. Were the vast majority of this article that speaks of the Pope and his church at Roman Catholicism where it belongs, it would not be an issue. But there are others who call themselves Catholic but do not accept those claims. An article at Catholicism should be neutral towards these claims; as written, this text is not. Roman Catholic is the correct term for the institution led by the Pope; moreover, the identification of the Pope and his denomination with Rome well antedates the Protestant Reformation; claiming that Roman Catholicism was never Roman until the Reformation is simply wrong. -- Smerdis of Tlön 01:34, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

IHCOYC, I never claimed or implied that "Roman Catholicism was never Roman until the Reformation". I am claiming that the use of the expression "Roman Catholic Church" began during the Reformation, and I intend to provide documentation thereof. If, in the meantime, you can find any documented use of the expression "Roman Catholic Church" predating the Protestant Reformation, please help me out - I'd like to see it. Thank you for the compromise, of including the statement saying the "Roman" Catholic Church calls itself the Catholic Church. Harris7 03:29, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Another part of the article says that the name of the Pope's church is the "Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church." "Roman Catholic Church" strikes me as a reasonable and sufficient name for short use. If the one is wrong, is the other? I will also cheerfully concede that the use of the "Roman Catholic Church" may well be more common after the Reformation. On the other hand, Roman Catholicism specifically identified itself as Roman in Pope Boniface VIII's bull Unam Sanctam, which also declared that subjection to the "Pontifex Romanus" was necessary for salvation. This was in 1302, well before Luther. I frankly do not understand why insisting on "Roman" in speaking of the Pope and his denomination is even controversial. -- Smerdis of Tlön 04:27, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Speaking of which, whence does that name come? Where is the name "Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church" come? It appears to be modeled after the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed's una sancta catholica et apostolica Ecclesia ("one holy, catholic and apostolic Church"), but I've never seen "Roman" as a part of that name. Publius

It is wrong to say that Catholic is the name only used by RCs. Most people across all religions use that term for RC. FearÉIREANN 18:37, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hi James, in your corresponding edit: "Most though not all christians and people from other faiths and none use the term Catholic Church to mean Roman Catholic.", the "and none" seems to be extraneous.

I apologize for wasting everybody's time on my nit-picking, which has resulted in the 2nd intro paragraph becoming nearly identical to the paragraph titled "Roman Catholicism". I'll leave this alone for now! Harris7 18:27, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The point was simply that Catholic is used by most people, whatever their religious beliefs or lack of, to refer to Roman Catholic. Maybe it needed to be written in clearer language. FearÉIREANN 20:12, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think that it is appropriate to refer to the Roman Catholic Church as such, when what is meant is that body of believers who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. It's a helpful term for "the rest of us", even if it's not the official designation. Similarly, I think "Eastern Orthodoxy" is an acceptable term for the "Eastern Orthodox Church", even though I think you would be hard pressed to find any official church document that mentions such an entity by either name. It's a useful term to refer to the collection of Orthodox Christian churches that remain in communion with each other; they aren't only in the East any more, and also confess faith in "one holy catholic and apostolic church" and so in that sense also consider themselves catholic. No insult should be intended or perceived in either case. There are also a number of Protestant denominations with similar all-encompassing names, like the "Church of Christ", "Church of God", "Disciples of Christ", "Christian Church", etc. Every Christian church considers itself to be all of the things mentioned in these names, so some kind of qualifier or extra designation becomes useful when talking about them, just for the sake of clear communication if nothing else. Wesley 04:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I suspect that there is unfortunate ambiguity in the term Roman Catholicism, because it is most generally used as a synonym of Catholicism, but it also may mean the Roman rite in particular. Perhaps a convention would be best, such as:

- "Roman Catholic" for all of Catholicism (under the Pope)
- "Roman Rite" if discussing only the Roman rite (not the Eastern Rite of Catholicism), and by extension, "Roman Rite Catholics" if discussing the people under Roman Rite. For example, Roman Rite priests may not be wed (unless they have converted from another rite or from Eastern Orthodoxy).

or of course the first term could be "Catholicism" for all of Catholicism; whatever you all think is best.

"It is organised in national heirarchies with diocesan bishops subject to archbishops." -- Is this true ? I thought in theory bishops were under the Pope.