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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 87.162.60.222 (talk) at 20:21, 3 April 2008 (→ISO voting irregularities). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Supporting Specification vs Reading or Writing Format

There seems to be some confusion, both in the Article and in the discussion, between two slightly different ideas:

  • Supporting a specification in the sense of approving of it.
  • Supporting a format in the sense of reading or writing a subset of it.

To illustrate, suppose a programmer writes programs in C, and the statements he uses happen to be a subset of the language defined by the C99 standard. Is the programmer supporting the standard or the language? In most cases, only the language. It's quite possible for the programmer to have learned to write C programs from a textbook without even knowing that any standard even exists.

Taking this example a little further, note that books that describe the C standard, and books that teach how to write C code, are almost always entirely different books.

When a document-handling program reads or writes a document in a format that appears to be a subset of the language defined by the OOXML would-be standard, does that document-handling program support the OOXML format, or the OOXML standard? In most cases, only the format, with with only a limited meaning of "supports". The author of the program may choose to read or write the format while still being opposed to the standard itself.

The Article begins by saying, "Office Open XML...is an XML-based file format specification." Then it confuses the issue later on by including a section "Application support" in which a large number of applications are listed that are said to "support" OOXML in various ways. The casual reader will have difficulty distinguishing between who supports the specification and who happens to read or write a subset of the document format.

I think this distinction ought to be made more clear, both in the Article and in this discussion. A person may support a subset of the format and still oppose the specification. Or a person may support the specification, while not using, or supporting use of, the format itself.

Rahul (talk) 07:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Archive #5

User:Kilz has stated that he is taking a break from Wikipedia. Therefore, I have archived past discussion content into archive page #5.

If I have archived any discussion that you feel still needs to be resolved, please re-state the discussion here.

Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 10:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thats sad, as soon as you think Im not here, you hide it all so no one sees the issues. I recommend anyone new read the archives. Kilz (talk) 21:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A comment via Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts: I think the discussion has descended into jargon-riddled wrangling where it's impossible to discern the issues (if there ever were any). It would help a lot if both User:HAl and User:Kilz took a break. Remember that you're creating an encyclopedia for the general reader who doesn't care about disputes between XML wank #1 vs XML wank #2. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 02:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, anyone new should absolutely read the archives. That should be standard practice before editing any article.
Kilz was the only user arguing his points. And given that Kilz said he was taking a break, I thought it made sense to move his arguments to the archive page.
Now, here's the real question: did I move all of the content from here to Archive 5 verbatim, or did I subtly manipulate it to make particular users look good and other users look bad and to push my POV?? WalterGR (talk | contributions) 03:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to move some of the OSP licensing discussion to the appropriate Microsoft Open Specification Promise article. Specifically the SFLC statement and the expert views opinions. The issue is brought up in the office open xml standardization proces but is in fact relavant to the OSP licensing and other patent covenant/promise types of licensing and is better suited in the OSP article. hAl (talk) 13:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I may be taking a break, but I'm not insane. You know full well that the sflc statement was aboiut ooxml. http://www.softwarefreedom.org/news/2008/mar/12/osp-gpl/ Leave it on the page hal. Kilz (talk) 21:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As except for the sockpuppeteer there seem to be no objections I have already added the info to the OSP article so it can be looked at before removing it from this article. hAl (talk) 15:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You Ad hominem argument does not matter. There is no consensus WP:CON, I refer you to WP:PRACTICAL specificly, to move the material, or remove it from this article. There is nothing that says it cant be on both. You have chosen to use your biased original research form on the Open Specification Promise page. Do not remove a referenced section from this page that clearly is about ooxml. Kilz (talk) 18:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


What is the history of DrawingML

It was said (see archive 5) that DrawingML makes up for a considerable part of the lenght 6000 page specification.

It would be good to tell people if it is a Microsoft made up thing or if it relies on existing standards.

Is it used outside Microsoft at all?

What are it's advantages? -- HJH —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.229.69.195 (talk) 17:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not to good in the exact graphics stuff but I found this for you:
Technical analysis between DrawingML and SVG.zip.
Open XML Explained e-book (With a chapter on drawingML) I hope it gives you some info. hAl (talk) 21:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ISO voting irregularities

The the information regarding voting irregularities surrounding OOXML's quest for ISO standardization has been moved to a separate article about OOXML standardization. However, this is one of the most intriguing aspects of OOXML, and the issue the format is most famous for. Although the other article can contain extensive detail about the allegations of irregularities and scandal, there still needs to be mention of it in this article, both 1 line in the intro, and 1 paragraph in the standardization section. Regards, Lester 19:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No actually is not essential for the format itself. It is something fully tied to the standardization proces but not the the format itself and is descriptive of behaviour around the format and opinionated 'news' surrounding the parties involved in the standardization but it is not very relevant to the format itself. The so called irregularities stories look like they are 90% opponents stories who did not get their preferred voting result in their country. hAl (talk) 21:31, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't let Standardization of Office Open XML be a POV fork of this article, though. There might be room in this article to talk about the two months allowed for appeals from NBs & there is probably room for criticisms specifically raised about the format (rather than the process) that are currently in the other article. --Karnesky (talk) 21:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are still massive allegations of vote rigging against Microsoft (short summary here). There is an ongoing antitrust EU investigation. Given the amount of criticism against OOXML and Microsoft's practices, I find it very biased to omit it completely from the main article.--87.162.60.222 (talk) 20:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ISO Standard

OOXML is now an ISO standard, and the article should reflect this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.153.60 (talk) 19:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to this article, OOXML is still not an official ISO standard, that is only the unofficial vote. Also with Norway's vote investigation, calling it a standard is a little premature. Article- http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9074058&intsrc=news_ts_head168.28.180.30 (talk) 21:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)Anonymous[reply]
Request for an investigation you probably mean. hAl (talk) 21:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ECMA vs ISO versions

The article seems to confuse the 2006 Ecma version of OOXML and the 2008 revised ISO version. For instance, all the applications listed in the implementation section only supports the former, not the ISO standard one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.209.194.26 (talk) 12:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Discussion about this article and an other article here: Talk:Microsoft_Office#Discussion —Preceding unsigned comment added by Helpsloose (talk • contribs) 22:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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