Talk:Visoreds

New to the subject

Something that editors may want to consider is how this page reads to people with no prior knowledge of the subject. I have none and the article makes no sense to me as currently written. More context would be useful...86.30.12.1 11:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I was assuming that's what all the wikilinks in the first line were for... Anaraug 15:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ichigo's "Half and Half Status"

The page says Ichigo became a shinigami and hollow at the same time, however he was a Shinigami long before he was a hollow (first chapter of the manga/episode of the anime). Even though those were "borrowed" powers, the zanpakuto he received was genuine and most likely (not sure if this has been mentioned/discussed or not) a sealed form of Zangetsu (as shown when he releases it during his training with Urahara). So I'm fixing the part that mentions him being half and half, as it's sort of obvious that he is a Vizard.

Thanks for discussing the edit before making it, but I have reverted it. It is not entirely clear that Ichigo is a vizard, and he did not awaken hollow powers while being a shinigami like the other vizard supposedly have. The clarification is not harmful to the article in any case. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 11:01, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

We actually have no information whatsoever about how the vizard other than Ichigo gained their powers. So it will basically be speculation no matter what we write about the issue. --tjstrf 18:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

In fact, this whole statement is incorrect. Ichigo was running on borrowed power andlost it. He then became a hollow n the pit, and forced it down by becoming a shinigami. If he had become a shinigami first, he would never have gained hollow powers in the first place. For those of you who do not remember this part of training so well, here's what happened: Ichigo's chain of fate was cut, and Urahara threw him in a pit that increased the speed on encroachment. Ichigo had three days to become a Shinigami (therefore not having a chain of fate) or the chain would encroach fully, turning him into a hollow. He missed the deadline and turned into a hollow. Luckily, however, as Urahara and company prepared to kill Ichigo, he forced down the hollow and became a shinigami. So through this logic, Ichigo is actually an arrancar. I suggest, therefore, that you change the emphasis of the article, which is that arrancar are hollows first and vizard are shinigami first. Ichigo is clearly a vizard. I think arrancar depends on who you side with. iriseyes ~

If Ichigo had been an arrancar he would permanently have a broken mask on his face as well as his zanpaktou would release his sealed hollow powers. As Ichigo instead has all of the characteristics of a Vizard he is a Vizard. -- freedomnow6 —Preceding comment was added at 13:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I say Ichigo is indeed a Vizard, he had semi-dormant shinigami powers all of his life due to being the son of a shinigami. Meeting with rukia/taking rukia's powers just gave him the ability to use a zanpakto and when he lost rukia's powers and awakened his own he got to keep his zanpakto the same exact zanpakto. He learned to control his hollow side the same as any Vizard and a mask forms over his head the same as any vizard --Bushido Brown 02:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

(WARNING: PERSONAL OPINION AHEAD! This is merely an attempt at explaining on of Bleach's deeper plot points to one of the numerous confused readers I hear ask about this constantly, and while I think it's correct, it's based on connecting the dots, not explicit series canon.)

Plotwise, the defining characteristic of an arrancar vs. a vizard is apparant in their names and the state of their masks: Arrancar rip their masks off, Vizard wear theirs when they choose. Symbolically, do you remember what the mask of a hollow represents? It's the guard that keeps their raw instinct protected from civilization, and judging by what happened to Orihime's brother who partially regained his reason upon having his mask broken, it's what keeps their instinct in control. Arrancar break their masks apart, melding their reason and their instinct, and similarly destroy the wall between their shinigami and hollow powers. When an arrancar breaks their mask, their killer instinct absorbs their reason, which is why they all act somewhat insane.

In a vizard, the two parts of their personalities and powers are seperate, intact, and fighting within them. This is why they have both fully shinigami, fully hollow, and masked forms. If you recall Ichigo's battle with his inner hollow, his moment of victory was when he met "Zaraki" within him, and grasped the importance of, and how to use, raw fighting instinct. A masked vizard is initially one in which the hollow and shinigami sides are fighting for dominance. However, when a vizard puts on their mask voluntarily after subduing their hollow, they are using raw instinct as a tool, but maintain control over it, and do not lose their reason.

So, in conclusion, Vizard are both hollow and shinigami, seperately, and their masked form is a shinigami's reason tapping into a hollow's killer instinct. Arrancar are both hollow and shinigami, but together in a mix. And I just did a really lousy job of explaining my point but hopefully someone will get it. --tjstrf 03:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I think there's another point to consider that's been overlooked- the details on Ichigo's zanpakutou while he's still going on his power "borrowed" from Rukia. Specifically, there are two things to observe- first, the size of the zanpakutou, clearly that is being affected by Ichigo's own innate power and not Rukia's, and secondly, the design of the tsuba on the sword, which is, in fact, pretty unmistakably Sode no Shirayuki's tsuba. Now from here I reason thusly- the zanpakutou is obviously on the surface Rukia's, as the tsuba shows, however beneath the apparent surface, it's Ichigo's. As his inner hollow tells him in chapter 218, both he and Zangetsu are Ichigo's power, meaning that if the size of his zanpakutou is a manifestation of Ichigo's power, the zanpakutou is Ichigo's Zangetsu. So therefore, put together, Ichigo's zanpakutou when he's running on borrowed power is, as a friend of mine once put it, "Zangetsu hiding in Sode no Shirayuki". He has his own zanpakutou from the start, just initially only through the means of borrowed power. --ACDragonMaster 08:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous Ideas: if you remember when Ichigo turned into a hollow during his training, he tore off his hollow mask, and appeared to be shimigami, but the arranchar also had to tear off their hollow mask to attain their powers, so do you think Ichigo might be somehow a mix of both vaizard and arranchar? just an idea.

Ichigo is... Unique. While his powers are that of a vizard, how he got them is more like an arrancar (At least as I see it). However, if you must catagorize him, it would be in the vizard column. The reason for this is that Ichigo has the soul equivalent to Multiple-personalities. Hollow Ichigo is a seperate entity with in "normal" shinigami Ichigo. If you wanted to timeline it out, Ichigo starts as a normal human soul with the capability of becoming a Shinigami, which he does, by absorbing Rukia's powers. After those are removed, he goes back to being a normal soul, still with his previous dormant powers. During the attempt to find his own powers, Ichigo starts the process of becoming a hollow thus, forming Hollow Ichigo as an entity. Since he managed to hold his "normal" shinigami self together, he became, in effect, a vizard. At least, if all the vizard are like Ichigo in the respect that they have their hollow self embeded deep within them. As probable as that is, we can't say for sure yet, since we don't have any solid evidence. Ichigo isn't really anything like the arrancar, since his hollow is a different entity. In the end, if Ichigo wants to get even more possible power, he'll have to bridge the gap between vizard and arrancar (Much like he bridged the gap between hollow and shinigami), but that's probably a ways down the road. I'm going to end my personal thoughts on all this now, because I'm starting to loose the personal path of reason I was travelling on. SaviorEX 17:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I won't say much, so here goes. Arrancar have holes (like hollows). Vizards do not have holes (like shinigami). Ichigo does not have a hole, therefore the answer is obvious. Ichigo is not an arrancar, plain and simple, cut and dry. Silvie rob 05:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

To add to that, he has two releases of his zanpakuto, a shikai, and a bankai. In his bankai, do you see him becoming a hollow-like creature? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.250.231.28 (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul

I'm putting this on top for emphasis, this article has a few(or more than few) outdated info and it's pretty much a mess, so I suggest for a overhaul of the article. Any suggestions on how we go about this? --Chemicalist 15:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Vizard or Vizards?

We should reach a consensus on whether the plural of 'vizard' should be 'vizard' or 'vizards'. I've seen both used so far. I vote for 'vizard', since it's standard in our articles to use the same plural as singular for Japanese words not used in English. On the other hand, 'vizard' is not really a Japanese word (while for example, shinigami is). -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 04:36, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

We sure about this- "While a vizard's inner hollow is nowhere near as powerful as a vizard's shinigami half..." I know there is not a consensus on whether Ichigo is one, but if he is, it would seems the Vizard's hollow side is incredibly powerful.

Eh, what does that have to do with my question? -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 18:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe I've seen a part in the manga where the word 'vizard' was used in a plural form; when they were referred to by the translations it was either "you guys", "us", or "vaizaado". So it's hard to tell.--Chemicalist 20:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be Visored, since they wear their masks like visors?

Yes, but Tite uses horrible spanish and english grammar, so we should just accept that. The japanese version does not puralize the word "vaisaado," so I don't think we should. iries ~

In that case, we just wait for an official romanization. Like the OST with the "Bounts" plural. --tjstrf 16:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hirako

Is Hirako's surname Hirako or is it Shinji?

I keep seeing his name rendered as "Shinji Hirako" and "Hirako Shinji", but never consistantly enough for me to tell if it is in Western order (given name 1st) or traditional East Asian order (surname 1st). The context of when his name is mentioned is somewhat ambigiuous too.

His last name is Shinji. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 18:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

No, no, wrong, Shinji is his name. Hirako is his surname. If you want a proof, this site Bleach Exile has the name of all characters with the order surname-name. Look Hirako Shingi (altough it's Shinji).

No offense, but the simple fact that they confused the name (Shingi vs. Shinji) doesn't say much about whoever administrates that site. My guess is that it's another casual clueless fan. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 09:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want more proofs: Bleach 7 and Chapter 184-05. Shinji's his name, Hirako's his surname.

The chapter you provided (and another, 189-17) does imply that his last name is Hirako; it's hard to tell for sure, since Hirako would be a much more likely Japanese first name and saying that Hirako is a last name is like saying that Yamamoto is a first name. However, I will for now accept the manga as proof because it does always use FN-GN. I will therefore edit the articles and move them accordingly. However, please do not provide fansites as evidence if we ever have another argument, because they are quite unreliable. Also, please register an account and sign your comments. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 19:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, Shinji's a very common first name too.--Chemicalist 15:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

In the beginning of volume 21 of the Japanese manga his name is written "Hirako Shinji", so Hirako is the surname and Shinji is the given name. --ACDragonMaster 02:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

A surname ending in "-ko" is unusual, but not that improbable. For example, "Kaneko" is a common surname, but somewhat uncommon first name. A manga has a high chance of characters with uncommon names, so that probably surprised you. --Revth 07:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Whether they have control of themselves in Hollow form

it's been recently shown the Hiyori can control herself in Hollow form. should that part in the article be edited?

It should probably be in the article, but IMO first we need to re-organize the article into proper sections because it's somewhat of a mess. Also, please sign your comments next time (register an account first...) -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 17:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

That's me way back when. =P --Chemicalist 20:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hollow-ka

Seems the name for the vizard transformation is called hollowization (虚化, horō-ka), if Dordonii is to be believed. Chapter 253, page 4. –Gunslinger47 05:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it's hollowfication —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.226.178.21 (talk) 22:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Hollowification stands for when someone just became Vizard. Hollowization sounds more like something you can yell Hollowization! then TADAA!! MugenTaichou (talk) 23:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What... the f*ck... was that supposed to mean? StardustDragon 23:38, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

He means "hollowfication" is a really, really stupid-sounding translation. ...we should think of something else.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 23:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It's what Viz uses. They also use "Soul Reaper-fication". Elegant, wouldn't you say? ~SnapperTo 03:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I realize that the Japanese term isn't that far-off from being equivalent in terms of tackiness, but god.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 03:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Why does Vaizād = Vizard?

Do we have an official source that romanizes vaizād (ヴァイザード) as "Vizard"? As it is, people will not be able to pronounce it correctly at first glance. Why did the vai get changed to vi? –Gunslinger47 13:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Just like no one tried to say Baunto, but used Bount, Bound, Bounto, Bountou, and variations, instead. It's natural for an English reader to read stuff in English. If we get an official transliteration we will of course use it. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, Ba'unt and Bount are much more similar than Vizard (as Wizard) and Vaizard (as Visored). –Gunslinger47 01:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The point is that an English pronunciation is assumed instead of a Japanese, as in Bount (which is pronounced like Baunto in Japanese would be, not Bōnto). Same with Vizard, which is pronounced in English as Vaizādo in Japanese would be. Vaizard, similar to the Dattebayo spelling Bounto, is wrong, because it presumes English pronounciation at the start of the word (ou = au, not ō), and Japanese in the end (short o instead of the long o that would be used in English). Same with Vaizard, which presumes Japanese pronounciation at the start (ai = ai, not ey), and English at the end (the letter combination rd doesn't even exist in Japanese). Therefore either a complete English variant should be used (Vizard or Visored), or a complete Japanese variant (V(B)aizādo). The word vizard meaning a mask in old English is also a good indication that Vizard is correct. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 14:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Right, hence we get to the reason for my asking. Some people think it should be Visored. Why's that wrong? –Gunslinger47 15:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is a good argument against Visored, but there also isn't a good argument for. Vizard also means mask so it's not like it's a random word vs. the more known word visor. In other words, there is simply no good reason to switch, even though both are valid IMO. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 16:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I would think that it's "Vizard" because [vizard] means "a mask or visor" in English, and Japanese, like all living languages, borrow words from other languages.

You know the different anime translations, since now they have started the arrancar arc, show the name to be viazard. And they pronounce it vi-zard. So if the original, not translated anime is calling it that way then should that be the official way of saying it? Bearing in mind that they call Chad Chado but we know its Chad.--Noman953 5:36, 11 Feburary 2007

I don't know. I keep hearing people suggest that it's supposed to be "Visored" and I wish I had a good reason to tell that they're wrong. –Gunslinger47 11:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

People don't pronounce wizard "whyzard", so I don't think this is the right spelling. --Nate3000 05:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

If I might try to summarize the "vizard" vs "visored" vs "vaizard" with reasons going for and against both...

"Vizard"

On the minus side, the pronunciation of the word "vizard" does not correlate with the katakana adaptation here. Specifically, the pronunciation of the first vowel should be identical to that of the word "wizard" (consult a dictionary of in doubt), and as such typical katakana-adaptation convention would dictate an output of ヴィザード "vizaado" (although actual pronunciation of a voiced bilabial fricative is somewhat uncommon) or ビザード "bizaado" (cf. wizard > ウィザード "wizaado").

On the plus side, it is a bone fide English word, albeit archaic. The meaning also fits well with the context. It being an archaic word does cast some doubt on to the probability that Kubo found and chose to use the word, although it's still not outside the realm of possibility.

"Visored"

On the minus side, the use of "visored" as a verb or, more likely in this case, an adjective is somewhat uncommon in English.

On the plus side, while perhaps uncommon as an adjective, it is still far from unattested and is still used in modern-day English. Next, the word "visor" is used as a loanword in Japanese currently and fairly commonly, having been adapted as バイザー "baizaa". In terms of probability, it seems much more likely that this is were Kubo picked up the word, as opposed to somehow coming across the archaic "vizard". Also, semantically speaking, the assumed meaning of "visored", that is "to be covered with a visor", is not particularly in anyway at odds with the context. Lastly, the choice of katakana adaptation in this case correlates perfectly with the expected output of "visored", that being either ヴァイザード "vaizaado" or バイザード "baizaado".

"Vaizard"

On the minus side, it isn't an English word (or a word of any other language, best I can tell, though correct me if I'm wrong).

On the plus side... to be frank, I don't see any pluses supporting that this is what Kubo intended, unless it was just intended to be a random foreign-esque word chosen purely for its sound and not based on any actual word. But honestly, I can only see this as being the result of people without much imagination and/or experience with Japanese attempting a reverse adaptation of a word written in katakana.

Personally I'd have to say that "visored" seems like a significantly more likely candidate than either of the others, although an official source of some kind would certainly be preferred in this case. Not that it should dictate what term is used in this article in the end, but conducting google searches using one of the three terms with "bleach" and "shinigami" added to focus the results seems to indicate that "vizard" is most commonly used on the net, followed by "vaizard", and then "visored" a very distant third. As much as I'd like to suggest we change the title of the page to "visored", it is arguably prudent to submit to the dominate fanbase convention until something more official surfaces.67.189.77.106 21:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Arrancar page

How come there's a different page for shinigami and vizard but the arrancar and hollow are on the same page? --Noman953 5:36, 11 Feburary 2007

Bad coordination on the part of the editorship. It needs to be fixed at some point. --tjstrf talk 10:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Soft redirect: Talk:Hollow (Bleach)#Arrancar page –Gunslinger47 11:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Inner hollow

Is there any information on what happens if a vizard fails to control his/her inner hollow? 71.203.209.0 21:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not stated explicitly, but shinigami are souls just like everyone else. Losing yourself to your inner hollow means you become a hollow; a simple non-menos. Likely a rather strong one due to the strength of the spirit body, one can speculate.–Gunslinger47 02:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Vaizard: Do they have a bankai?

It's clear that the vaizard are previous death gods and have the abilities of that kind. So the question that remains is can they or do they have bankai or even shikai for that matter? Both Manga and the anime has not been clear on this topic. 202.52.237.74 13:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Zangetsu seems to be working well enough. –Gunslinger47 17:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

But that is specifically for Ichigo only, and might not be applicable to all. I was wondering the others have their own 'Zangetsu's as well. 202.52.237.74 10:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, of course they do. All shinigami have sword spirits, all vizard are shinigami. All vizard therefore have sword spirits. We've seen a couple of them change their zanpakuto as well, just never with the full release ritual. --tjstrf talk 10:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

We don't know whether the Vizard have the power and skill with their shinigami abilities to achieve the final release (it's clearly stated that bankai is quite rare), but since they are shinigami it's at least theoretically possible. 71.203.209.0 21:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

They are also shown to be quite strong, an unmasked Shinji held his own against GrimmJow and most of them were able to figth against Hollow Ichigo. So their Reiatsu should be high enough for them to know Bankai.

They still might not have enough zanjutsu potential though. Reiatsu alone isn't enough to grant bankai, otherwise Kenpachi would have gotten his ages ago. --tjstrf talk 06:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

For a direct answer to your second question, Kensei Muguruma has been seen using an initial release in both the manga and anime. His zanpakutō turns into a knife. –Gunslinger47 21:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

And how exactly can you prove this is shikai? He didn't say a command or name. Maybe it can just change forms. Maybe it's like Hoozukimaru's shikai in that it has two forms: the 'together' form and the 'three-part' form. StardustDragon 23:34, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

As long as they know they Zanpakutō's name, and have enough reiatsu. Then they might have the abiluties needed to use banki, but never learn the steps to use their banki. I hope that make sense. thedarklonewolf

It appears a bunch of them were captains. So, they probably did, since the general qualification is having a bankai. We might see them release sometime.

Current image

The current image for this page is not the cover of a single issue of a comic book, as claimed by the licensing template, and no further source is given. It's also decidedly not a low-resolution image, and there's no specific fair use rationale. I am hoping that these problems can be easily corrected, but if not, it may be necessary to discuss deleting the image. Thoughts? Dekimasuよ! 17:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The coverpage for manga -107 should work a lot better. it can be directed back to Kubo, and it has them all in a simple order in past and present forms. cant ask for much more.Diablo11d (talk) 04:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Characters Data

Should there be some info on the individual members of the Vizard beside their name, maybe even a picture of them, just a thought WhiteStrike 18:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

See the article Characters in Bleach. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

This articel should be in the same way as Bounts in Bleach and Hollows in Bleach in which the info for the class is in the article and it will also help make characters in bleach smaller taking from the discussion of that article beign to big WhiteStrike 03:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

When the roles of the individual vizard members expand, then we'll do so. The only one of significance so far is Shinji. As for now, all that we can really include is what's present at the Characters in Bleach page. Sephiroth BCR 03:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Should Hiyori have her own page

She has been shown with her hollow mask, and her Zanpakutō. We seen her fight. We have enough info for a page, so should she have her own page. thedarklonewolf

Not enough information on her history, background, etc. We need more information and suffice third-party sources. σмgнgσмg 09:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

True, just because we've seen her fight doesn't make her notable enough for a page. If you are really interested, you should have seen how all our stub articles were merged.--Hanaichi 09:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

12 Squad Vice-Captain... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.11.233.140 (talk) 21:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

No,no,no,NO! I am sick of these pointless articles that need to be merged! Don't make more! We did not even see her fight a real fight. That was just random Ichigo training. A fight is when you are fighting someone and you take it seriously. If Hiyori's fight with Ichigo was serious Ichigo would have wasted her.Del rayo (talk) 21:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

OMG lets giev evr1 wit a hollo mask a paeg nao... owait WP:NOTABILITY fail StardustDragon 01:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Backstory revelations

The current revelations are huge certainly the fact that Shinji was Aizen's fmr Captain and that Rose and Love were also captains is enough to make them worthy of their own pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bushido Brown (talk • contribs) 22:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Sigh, the chapter hasn't even come out yet. Not that they're getting a page when it does, just that you need to have some patience. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

What I am doing is bringing it up now so that when the chapter does come up were not all scratching our heads thinking about what to do next Bushido Brown (talk) 23:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Why would we scratch our heads? We add the new information as we do every week, and maybe do a little clean up of the article in the process. There's nothing that needs to be discussed. ~SnapperTo 23:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Lets discuss now wheter seperate pages are in order for at least some of the vizards. Bushido Brown (talk) 23:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not demonstrate that they have the reliable third-party sources that would allow the character to pass WP:FICT or WP:NOTE. Because without such sources, they shouldn't have seperate articles. --Farix (Talk) 00:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That and there's no point in making an article just because one new sentence has cropped up for each, maybe three at the most. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 01:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I know the spoilers he's talking about, though I'm not sure if they've been completely verified anyway. After all, I had always thought that Aizen had been captain for way more than 110 years, which is when it says Shinji was the sq. 5 captain. Because that was the same time Kurotsuchi and Soifon got their captainship, and that it seems strange that only 10 years before, Aizen was a lieutenant. 26 March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.99.169.251 (talk) 04:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

the raw has come out. confirmed: Hirako[5th Division], Love[7th], Rose[3rd], and Kensei[unknown which Division as of yet] were former Captains. refer to pages 6, 10, 14, and 16 respectively for reference. Hiyori and Risa were Lieutenants of the 12th Division and the 8th Division, respectively. looks like the edits have been made anyway, so yeah.--Chemicalist (talk) 17:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

kesei was captain of either 2nd or 6th division. 1st,3rd,4th,5th,7th,8th,9th,10th,11th,12th, and 13th are all taken.(Tousen was a captain back then, look at chapter 146, that is a captain's haori;then again, kommamura was wearing a haori too, so...) Del rayo 15:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Del rayo (talk • contribs)

Look at page 17 of the new chapter. Kensei is standing next to Ukitake, and opposite Hiyori. We know that the 11th Division Captain is off somewhere else, Urahara is the new 12th, and the 10th is dead. So, that leaves the 9th Division, since the 7th is also taken. This will probably be revealed next week, but that's the logical way to look at it, IMO. Big red01027 (talk) 21:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

TO add to that, yo uforgot about division six, and 2nd is probably Yoruichi-san

Yoruichi was never a Captain. And I didn't "forget" 6th Division; there was no relevant info to be gleaned from the newest chapter about it. Big red01027 (talk) 06:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose they let her wear that haori and explicitly titled her as such in -107 because they felt like it? StardustDragon 01:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Why is Shinji all of the sudden at the bottom? Del rayo (talk) 16:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Because of alphabetical order. ~SnapperTo 03:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Kensei Muguruma

I'm quite sure that Kensei Muguruma was captain of the Ninth division. You simply use process of elimination Yamamoto was captain of division one I'm quite sure Yoruichi was division two, of course she technically was just the leader of the stealth force, as Soifon was her copycat stalker, I'm quite sure she was Love was captain of divison three Captain of four, Unohada-senpai Hirako Shinji, Captain of division 5 Of course, then there's division six, but, it doesn't sound like his division (unfair assumption) Seven was Afro man, I forget his name already Eight- Kyoraku Nine- Not sure Ten- Met an "unfortunate end" eleven- a kenpachi twelve- Commonly known as "Urahara Kisuke" Thirteen- Some people call him Ukitake

More easily, in the recent manga you could clearly see that his shinigami hakama is sleveless, a characteristic of all the members of the Ninth Division. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.152.31.168 (talk) 03:45, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

We are putting NOTHING until hardcore evidence surfaces. Process of elimination, you can't be absolutely sure = speculation.--Hanaichi 06:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

first of all Rose is 3rd Squad and Love is 7th. Sound reasoning but we can't be sure of 2, since it's never stated explicitly that Yoruichi was ever captain of 2nd squad. She was the previous commander of the Onmitsukidou as is Soi Fon, but it's never STATED that those two jobs are always held by the same person. 2nd, 6th and 9th are all still possibilities. As is 10th, really. There's nothing saying in the manga that Kensei isn't the 10th's replacement. In anycase, we can wait another week to find out. Don't make any changes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.61.105.151 (talk) 20:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Read the manga again, Shunsui says "while the 10th division captain met with an untimely demise." Also look at Tousen flashback in chapter 146. That is a captain's haori! Then again, Kommamura is wearing one too, so...Kubo must've screwed up with him. At any rate, no changes should yet be made. Del rayo (talk) 20:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

All that proves is that Tousen was already a Captain (or was wearing white -_-) when Kenpachi Zaraki took over the 11th Division. It has no bearing on the argument at hand, because we don't know how long the "current" Kenpachi has been 11th Division Captain. There was no evidence in -108 to suggest that the "Kenpachi" referenced is Kenpachi Zaraki. Big red01027 (talk) 00:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah? Then how do you explain that Ikkaku knew about Urahara? In fact, he seemed to know how strong he was, judging by his reaction to when Ichigo told him Urahara trained him. And what method would Ikkaku use to ascertain one's strength? He would fight him, and unless you are near someone you can't fight them. Ikkaku joined the Gotei 13 after Zaraki became captain. Plus, the persona of the Kenpachi described by Shunsui matches our Kenpachi, and according to Ikkaku's flashback during his fight with Edrad Leones the 11th division became battle crazy when Zaraki became captain, so Tousen was captain during this time unless Kubo screwed up. Del rayo (talk) 21:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.154.226.212 (talk)

Ikkaku obviously knew that Urahara was a former Captain, something that Ichigo didn't know until afterward. Also, your assertion about Kenpachi could apply to a multitude of different people, including Kyoraku and Ukitake themselves. So it's not like Kenpachi Zaraki is THE ONLY ONE who "walks to the beat of his own drum". What you're arguing is speculatory. Big red01027 (talk) 02:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Shinji also called the current Kenpachi a pig. Yeah, it could be Kyoraku or Ukitake. Del rayo (talk) 22:56 30 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.154.226.212 (talk)

-108, last panel of page 16 is the command to stand in formation. The current practice is, the captains line up from Old Man Yama, lowest to highest, odd numbered squads on left and even on right. The third panel of page 17 shows Kensei Muguruma standing next to 13th Squad Captain Ukitake, and across from Hiyori who is wearing a clearly visible 12th Squad Vice-Captain's insignia. Based on this, it looks like Kensei Muguruma is the Captain of Squad 11, and thus the 10th Kenpachi that Shinji refers to as a loose cannon. Just because Shinji refers to him in that manner now does not preclude them coming to know and respect each other later - just look at Ichigo and Renji.Krumhorns (talk) 04:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

If you noticed there was no one next to Hiyori, and Kaien is not dead yet, so the formation's mean nothing.Del rayo (talk) 04:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I revised my edit, but apparently it didn't take. After reading the previous Talk section and looking at -108 again, it's probably more likely that Kensei is Captain of Squad 9. It is possible that he is Captain of Squad 11, and entered the room after Shinji's and Love's conversation; however, after making a point of showing the later arrivals of Rose, Kyoraku, and Ukitake, it's less likely that Captain 11 just slipped in (though it's possible Tite Kubo is trying to keep us in suspense.) The image shows three people - it's the artist's decision to cut the viewer's perspective, which doesn't mean others aren't there, simply that we can't see them. Two captains on one side and a vice-captain on the other. Either Hyori is temporarily filling the 12th Captain's position as a stand-in or is standing behind that position next to the 10th Vice-Captain who is not visible. The Vice-Captains on the odd-numbered side would not be visible in this drawing based on the perspective. Kaien is irrelevant in this instance.Krumhorns (talk) 05:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Krumhorns, if you recall, Zaraki explained that the strongest in each generation takes the name Kenpachi as his given name. So when they refer to the "10th Kenpachi", it is likely not Kensei, as you pointed out above. Also, it's possible that Ukitake has a VC before Kaien, who was not shown in -108. Big red01027 (talk) 23:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder; I had indeed forgotten about the use of "Kenpachi" as a name. After a closer look at the image of Kensei on the bottom of page 16, in the lower left part of the image, it looks like his haori might be sleeveless, but it's hard to tell. If so, this may indicate a Squad 9, that is if the style of the sleeves is a tradition in each squad rather than a mark of seniority as I had read elsewhere. I originally had thought it was simply personal preference, but it may be it was the preference of the very first captain of each of the squads and got codified as the style for all his/her successors. If Kensei is the Squad 9 captain, it's ironic to realize that the four Vizard Captains stood side-by-side next to each other, and when they left, wiped out two-thirds of that side of the Captain's formation.

I'm not sure how Kaien even ended up in the conversation - Del rayo mentioned him, but I didn't bring him up initially, so found the comment something of a non-sequitur. Ukitake doesn't arrive with a Vice-Captain (who could have already been there), so who the Vice-Captain is, and if Kaien, whether he's dead or alive, is completely speculative at this point. I'm not sure why Del rayo brought this up. We'll just have to wait and see. Ah, anticipation!Krumhorns (talk) 07:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Anticipation indeed! I just saw a spoiler that indicates that Yoruichi was 2nd Division Captain at that time. Blows my theory right out of the water, if it's true. Big red01027 (talk) 23:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I saw those too. There was also a picture of the final captains lower face.Del rayo (talk) 01:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Where did you see that one? Was it the 6th Division Captain, or Hikifune? Big red01027 (talk) 19:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It could have been either one. The website is bleachfinder.blogspot.com. I'm not sure if it was verified but... You know, the second picture could also be Yoruichi( there is a black ribbon around the persons neck in the second picture).Del rayo (talk) 01:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Took a look; both of them are Yoruichi, they're just cropped in a stupid way. That website is a mess, too. Big red01027 (talk) 04:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

In the newest chapter, it's shown there's another unnamed captain, and Yoruichi is the captain of Division two. When you see the captains sstanding, Kensei is in the ninth captain's position. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.226.178.21 (talk) 00:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the 6th Division Captain was the previous head of the Kuchiki family before Byakuya. There's also someone standing behind him, which could be Byakuya, but we don't know at present. Also, I think this chapter pretty much proves that Kensei is the 9th Division Captain. It just hasn't been shown that he's wearing the 9th's haori. Big red01027 (talk) 02:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Is already been confirmed that the older man is in fact the former head of the Kuchiki clan, and more likely than would make him the Captain of the 6th squad. With everyone already in aggrement about both the 10th and 11th squad Captains not being there, plus the way they are formed up during Urahara's introduction it would be said that we have more than enough info to say that Kensei is that Captin of the 9th squad. WhiteStrike (talk) 23:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

There is hard evidence that Kensei was captain of 9th division: "Turn back the clock" part 5. His lieutenent is Kuna Mashiro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.110.151.91 (talk) 07:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Former Captains

As of chapter 317 the only ones that have been confirmed Captain status from 100 yeasrs ago are 1=Yamamoto 2=Yoruichi 3=Rose 4=Unohana 5=Shinji 7=Love 8=Shunsui 10="met an untimely demised" but does not say if he was replaced yet 12=newly apointed Kisuke 13=Joshiro, Also there is and unnamed older shinigami standing in the place where the 6 squad Captain would be (he is between Unohana and Shunsui and Kensei is standing between Love and Joshiro meaning he could be either the Captain for 9 or 11 squad. There is only 11 captains at the meeting and if we count the 10 squad as not having one yet (not stated that he hasn't been replaced yet) we can see that there is one Captain missing. WhiteStrike (talk) 13:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Therefore what? We assume Kensei is the 9th captain? It was said the "Kenpachi" was off running somewhere around. There is one guy wearing the ginpaku scarf Byakuya wore, so perhaps he is a Kuchiki, but no reason given that he is the 6th Captain. Placing doesn't matter, people could just randomly move wherever they want. Speculation, speculation and speculation.--Hanaichi 06:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Calling it speculation at this point is ridiculous. The theory has too much supporting evidence to be called speculation; the amount of information we can glean from the recent chapters is a clear indication that Kensei is captain of the 9th. Chapter -107, pages 7-8 shows the captains standing at attention for the inauguration of Urahara (note: this is a formal event. The captains would be standing in specific places). A total of ten captains are displayed; three are missing. One of these three, captain of the 10th, is dead. The captain of the 12th is waiting outside the door to be introduced, and captain of either the 11th is absent because he "never listens to a thing he's told". The arrival of the rebellious captain of the 11th would have made somewhat of an impact on those captains already present. That said, let's look at how the captains are arranged: Yamamoto is sitting in his chair at the end of the hall, captains of evenly numbered divisions on the left, oddly numbered on the right. They make a zigzag pattern. With this, there's enough evidence to support that the elderly captain wearing the scarf is captain of the 6th, as he's standing between captain of the 4th and 8th (if anyone wants to dispute the fact that Unohana and Kyouraku are captains of these two divisions, please, be my guest). We know that Rose is captain of the 3rd (see chapter -108, page 14--he's sneezing) and we know that Shinji and Love are captains of the fifth and seventh, respectively. From this, we can deduce that Kensei is captain of the 9th. That leaves the absent captain of the 11th and Ukitake, captain of the 13th. If all of this isn't enough, take a look at Kensei's uniform. It matches the cut of Tousen's, both the hakama and haori are sleeveless. This seems to be common in the 9th division, as even Shuuhei's hakama is sleeveless. None of this is speculation, this is simple pattern recognition. I'm sure you'll get around to that in your beloved math class one of these days, Hanaichi. →Wavefront (talk) 14:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The main piece of evidence supporting that Kensei is the 9th division captain is that even numbered captains appear to be positioned on the left while odd numbered captains are on the right. Yet in chapter 188 Unohana, an even captain, is on the right. Inconsistencies have we, and no proclamation of who heads what division will be made until there is a source for it. ~SnapperTo 23:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Chapter -104. Is that hard enough evidence? Are you guys gonna dispute that the old man is captain of the sixth, now, too? Let go of your stubborn bureaucracy, already--these facts are self-evident. If not before, they certainly are now. wavefront_talk 16:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I just want to say this whole discussion / war / whatever is just stupid. On the one hand, common sense tells us that he will be the 9th captain. I don't think anyone is going to be surprised at this. In fact, I think most people already accept this. Then you have the defenders of wikipedia who refuse to put this up because it's unverified.

While I agree/sympathize with the people who put up that Kensei is the 9th, I think both sides are WP:LAME here. erc ^{talk/contribs} 08:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Hanaichi smacking people around. Oh, and I think Kubo will eventually say directly that Kensei is the 9th Division Captain. He just hasn't yet because....well, that's how he is. Big red01027 (talk) 05:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

It's a moot point now. I requested page semi-protection for a week, and received a month of semi-protection. We'll just wait until it's finally "revealed". erc ^{talk/contribs} 23:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Just one point: in the Turn Back the Pendulum chapters, it is revealed that the 11th squad captain always takes the name Kenpachi. It is stated that he is not at the meeting where they induct Urahara Kisuke into their ranks, and he is referred to as odd. While not confirmed, I believe that the captain in question is none other than Zaraki. Therefore, Kensei would be the unconfirmed 9th Squad captain.

False Statement Under Lisa

It says: "Likewise, her shinigami uniform during her time in the Gotei 13 had a shortened hakama resembling a skirt."

Lisa hasn't been shown, however, in the past 2 chapters other than the side of her face, like the others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.97.162 (talk) 01:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The VC with Shunsui is Lisa not Nanao she wears differant glasses, has a differant hairstyle and wears a modified version mof the shinigami outfit. Even if you thought it wasn't Lisa it couldn't be Nanao and the colour spread proves it was her —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.52.5.11 (talk) 18:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You can see the skirt outfit in the first page she arrives on. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 20:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Kensei's release form

How do we know this is his released form? StardustDragon 01:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

because itis a non-standard size, shoots energy beams, and otherwise his sword is just a regular looking katana.24.128.210.23 (talk) 01:14, 20 April 2008 (UTC)