Talk:Abiogenesis

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Much of the content of Abiogenesis was merged from Origin of life. For discussion of that page preceding that merge, see here.

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Polyphopshate model edit

I would like to discuss the removal of an edit of mine to the Polyphosphate section of this website. First, who removed it and why? It is consistent with a number of articles in the scientific literature as well as several popular books that discuss the origin of life. Also, the model is consistent with some views expressed by Arthur Kornberg in his papers on Polyphospahte (and inconsistent with none of his views). The current Polyphospahte discussion is minimal and would greatly benefit from a second paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Polyp2 (talk • contribs) 00:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Click here to learn who and why. Art LaPella (talk) 01:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was a lot to read on your personal site, so I may have missed your point. Is it that you do not want me to link to the book's website? Would you prefer a standard reference with no link (ie-title, year of publication, etc.)? Others seem to link to the primary source.

Is that the problem, or is it something else? And what is your area of expertise that relates to polyphosphate and abiogenesis?

Polyp2 (talk) 03:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you didn't click the words "Art LaPella"! I meant for you to click the words "Click here". There you will learn that you were reverted by Tmol42, who gave a short explanation. I (Art LaPella) am not a professional scientist, and I have not researched this issue, except to look up the editing history of the page to answer your question. Also, new discussion normally goes at the bottom of the talk page, not the top. Art LaPella (talk) 04:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Art, and sorry for the confusion. I am new to this Wiki posting business.

Tmol42, I am waiting for a response from you. My questions still stand.

Polyp2 (talk) 04:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If Tmol42 isn't watching this page, you can get his attention by asking him at the bottom of User talk:Tmol42. There he will be notified as soon as he logs on. Art LaPella (talk) 04:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Polyp2, I see you are new to WP so will explain in a bit more detail. In short your edit was reverted as it was not substantiated by the reference you provided. The reference you provided to back up the edit was to a flyer for a book Here which turns out to be no more than an advert for the book with no explanation of the theory or a citation of research to substantiate the edit. In fact it appears the book is more to do with 'a call to arms' to start /continue research in this area talking about ID and Darwin. I see the author is postulating a Darwinian-linked theory which is in itself enough to ring alarm bells for some and claims of popularism from others. WP is an encyclopedia and not a place for promoting books per se which would be also be sufficient reason to remove the citation. In short its much better to stick to more traditional sources here.

Visitors to WP should expect the content of articles to be reliable, have their rigor tested, and to be backed up by robust references. This is more often also achieved for such subjects through discussion and consensus reached on the Talk Pages, and is commonplace regardless of the notoriety of a fact or theory. Pop over to the related page Here to see what I mean. Other editors interested in developing and improving this article therefore need to be confident about support for an edit however sound and given the controversy of the subject to reiterate your edit was just not supported by the reference. You have alluded above to other research which supports the theory. if it is compelling then cite it and allow it to be reviewed and tested by others. BTW my expertise is irrelevant but I happen to have a background in Biochemistry and Genetics. Also you need to be a bit more patient and wait for a reply. Some other editors I have seen might have given you a bit of a roasting for that but for the rest of us we have a life and do also need to sleep now and then! Hope this helpsTmol42 (talk) 10:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

.

It does help, but I have a few questions and comments (and pardon me for being a Wiki newbie and not following convention perfectly):

First, many of the Wiki links are to abstracts of papers in the literature. These links do not provide you with the paper itself, but instead ask you to buy the paper in order to read it (unless you are at a university or company that has already bought the journal). So what is the difference? I imagine you will say (but I could be wrong) that these papers are peer reviewed. But much of the most interesting discussion on the origin of life (and certainly most of the more generally accessible discussion) has appeared in books rather than papers. The discussions are too long to appear in papers (papers are better for smaller and more specific contributions). I would argue that the problem with the origin of life field (and the abiogenesis Wiki page) is that scientists feel free to write papers on virtually anything they want, whether or not it could reasonably fit into a complete origin of life pathway. What is needed is a reasonable pathway, parts of which could then be studied in detail. And that is what the book provides.

Second, all work in abiogenesis is a "call to arms" at this point simply because no theory has reached consensus. This is because no theory seems particularly compelling relative to the others. The Polyphosphate section on the Wiki page is lacking support, and could be made more compelling with my addition (in my opinion). What is so harmful that you feel the need to limit discussion on Wiki of a more elaborated Polyphosphate abiogenesis model?

Third, why would a "Darwinian-linked theory" ring alarm bells or raise cries of populism? What do you mean by this? Certainly most scientists believe the origin of life was based on evolution and natural selection. If not at first, then shortly thereafter. Also, you seem to imply the model has something to do with ID. In fact, it provides a compelling argument against ID and relies on nothing more than logic, chemistry and evolution. You have probably not read the book, but saw some snippets of it that have nothing to do with the model itself. The model is only the middle third of the book, and I would be willing to send you a copy of it free of charge.

Fourth, I am not some random crank. I have a degree in ChemE from MIT and a PhD in Biochemistry from Stanford. I knew Arthur Kornberg (the Polyphosphate and DNA replication guru) quite well. I have published work in the scientific literature that relates to the Darwinian Polymer Model. But these papers do not outline the model as the book does, and so I referenced the book. And although the book was not peer reviewed like a journal article, it has been read by several tenured Harvard and Stanford professors and has received positive comments.

I think Arthur Kornberg would have encouraged me to fight to get the model a brief mention in the Polyphosphate section of Wiki. I think he would have been very disappointed with the current section, which says little about how Polyphosphate might have played a role in abiogenesis. I feel my contribution is sufficiently short, does not otherwise detract from the abiogenesis page, and points to a piece of work that enhances the Polyphosphate discussion.

Can a compromise be reached, or am I (in your opinion) breaking an unbreakable rule of Wiki? And does anyone else have a comment? I am content with majority rule with respect to this issue, and have far more patience than you imagine. Polyp2 (talk) 13:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scientific Consesus

The article where is says:"Scientific consensus is that abiogenesis occurred sometime between 4.4 billion years ago, when water vapor first liquefied,[2] and 2.7 billion years ago, when the ratio of stable isotopes of carbon (12C and 13C), iron (56Fe, 57Fe, and 58Fe) and sulfur (32S, 33S, 34S, and 36S) points to a biogenic origin of minerals and sediments[3][4] and molecular biomarkers indicate photosynthesis.[5][6] This topic also includes panspermia and other exogenic theories regarding possible extra-planetary or extraterrestrial origins of life, thought to have possibly occurred sometime over the last 13.7 billion years in the evolution of the Universe since the Big Bang.[7]"

It says there is a "scientific consensus" that the "event" occured between 4.4 and 2.7 billion years ago and also possibly 13.7 billion years ago. What is the "consensus"?Tstrobaugh (talk) 16:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're pretty much bound by what the sources say, barring the sources being mis-represented or a lack of new sources, the page should stick to what it says now. WLU (talk) 19:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even if it is contradictory?Tstrobaugh (talk) 00:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How is that contradictory? Life appeared on earth between 4.4 and 2.7 billion years ago. Maybe it came from somewhere else first, but it was first on earth somewhere in that range. This article includes information about theories of abiogenesis on earth + theories that life on earth came from somewhere else (wasn't genesis of life from no life (abiogenesis), but life on earth from life somewhere else). - Enuja (talk) 01:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So you believe that there is a "Scientific Consensus" that life began on earth between "4.4 and 2.7 billion years ago" and also may have come from somewhere else possibly 13.7 billion years ago? You ask where is the contradiction, I ask again, where is the consensus?Tstrobaugh (talk) 15:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes.

Scientific consensus: There is life on earth now. There absolutely was life on earth 2.7 billion years ago. There could have been life on earth as early as 4.4 billion years ago. We do not know how/where it came from.

Does that make more sense? One can have a consensus "We have no data. We do not know." In this case, there is some data that everyone agrees on, and there are hypotheses that people do not agree on. Questions we do not have answers for include: Did life come from elsewhere? Did it come from non-life on earth? When (in the 1.7 billion year possible period) did life start existing on earth?

The current text does not say that life could have appeared on earth 13.7 billion years ago, but that it could have occurred elsewhere sometime in the last 13.7 billion years and came from elsewhere to earth between 4.4 and 2.7 billion years ago. The current text also doesn't say that the scientific consensus is that life arose elsewhere a long time ago; the consensus bit refers only to the first sentence. If either of these things are what is bothering you, then, by all means, clarify the text of the article.

I honestly don't understand what is confusing about the section you've quoted, and I honestly haven't even read the whole article carefully; it's a mess. But the part you are quoting makes sense to me. - Enuja (talk) 18:31, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]