Talk:Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District

Case number

Kitzmiller et al. v. Dover Area School District is the full name-- I just set that to redirect here, but should we make that the main article? Jokestress 02:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers associated with the case: 04-CV-2688, 2005 WL 578974 (MD Pa. 2005) I've not done citations in Wikipedia style before. Jokestress 02:34, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To be really picky there is an "et al" in the defendants as well. I notice that other Wikipedia articles don't put in "et al" that are technically part of the title. And a lot of places will simply call the case Kitzmiller v. Dover. -- MSH

Background

Anyone want to write a background section? We have the event leading up to the case, the pre-trial hearings, etc. The various sides fight it out in the press and we also have the reporters who did not want to do a deposition that they where asked for. -- MSH

Hi MSH--

Great work on this so far! We will definitely take a crack at the suggestions you made. I encourage you to consider registering a username to make communication and editing tasks easier. That way people can leave you messages on your talk page and keep track of changes you made, since you do not have a static IP address. Just click up at the top, choose a name and password, and you are good to go! Then you can do cool things like keep a watchlist of articles you follow and see a list of all your contributions, as well as sign your comments with four tildes like this -> Jokestress 23:44, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

MHS, I think the background is a clash between:

those who believe in God, and don't want science "abused" (as they see it) to indoctrinate schoolchildren into a materialistic philosophy that claims people could come into being without being created on purpose; and,
those who do not believe in God, and are equally outraged by using the trappings of science and logic to argue that there is any room for the possibility of life having being created on purpose.

Probably not one person in 20 is even interested in taking an scientific (i.e. objective) look at the issue. 19 out of 20 say that the facts are on their side, and that's all they care about.

I think Darwinist are correct about the politics of intelligent design. They see it as undermining their view that human orgins can be explained without God. They want to be able to say that the debate is over and that their side won. ID advocates are trying to use the courts to force the debate to be re-opened.

Personally, I think evolutionists need to prevent open debate, particularly in public school classrooms. Debate allows logical thought to enter the arena, and that's always bad for anyone pushing a doctrine. Uncle Ed 02:35, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ed-- the suggested broader background you have referenced is discussed at length on creationism, intelligent design, and evolution. In addition, your comments reflect a misstatement of the scientific method, which is limited to falsifiable hypotheses that are testable through empirically observable phenomena. Because the ID proponents have not been willing to debate by presenting evidence in peer-reviewed scientific journals (another hallmark of scientific method), this court case is the first chance that the issue can be debated openly and objectively. At any rate, the background to this specific case is probably all that needs to be here, with links to the larger articles, many of which are already linked. The intelligent design article already has some pretty good background on the case. Jokestress 07:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, I note that you are seem to be (a) ignoring the substance of what I said and (b) declaring that I've made a mistake, which you then go on to "correct". This doesn't help us get articles written.

I think I'm going to have to write an over-arching article which presents the viewpoints of both camps fairly. Evolutionists see creationists as doing this, trying that, forgetting / omitting / misunderstanding the other. On the other hard, creationists see evolutionists as having such and such an agenda, confusing this and that, ignoring the other, etc. That would be a balanced, unbiased analysis. And actually I'm not sure I'm up to the challenge! But our encyclopedia really needs someone to do this.

Currently, Wikipedia articles side (or tend to side) with the view that evolution is correct. This is a violation of NPOV, since there is considerable controversy on the matter. 99.8% of biologists and 95% of scientists in general are in conflict on this point with around 50% of the general population (depending on country). In the U.S. only about 10% to 12% of the general population rejects creationism and accepts evolution.

Note that this breaks down to around 45% of Americans embracing creationsm straight out, and another 40 to 45% (approx.) believing that God created life through gradual stages - a view which Wikipedia articles need to compare and contrast with the materialistic, no God needed theory of evolution.

There is plenty of mendacity on both sides! I'm the first to admit this (well, maybe the second ;-) and there's good reason for evolution advocates to be suspicious of ID adherents. But all I'm concerned about here is how to craft an objective, unbiased look at the entire controversy - without having Wikipedia endorse or reject any particular view. Uncle Ed 14:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you start by reading the well-known book by the first witness called in the trial. That should clear up a lot of confusion about this matter. Your plans for writing another "teach the controversy" type overview will simply be duplicating efforts already available on the site. I suggest adding to existing pages if you feel there is something missing. Jokestress 15:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The claim that "Wikipedia articles side (or tend to side) with the view that evolution is correct" is itself a POV, and one almost exclusively found by those here who push creationist POVs or have an ideological ax to grind, I'll add. Most who are not so polarized feel that Wikipedia's evolution related articles are reasonably balanced. Those who refer to other editors here (and scientists elsewhere) as "evolutionists" when there are other, more accurate, less charged terms available are dealing in intentionally devisive stereotyping that has no other purpose than to additionally charge the debate.

Jokestress' additions to this article appear grounded in fact and well-cited. I see no POV issue with them or the article. FeloniousMonk 16:47, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A fine example is presented by "Uncle Ed" of the sort of ~~dishonest ploy~~ Creationists are wont to use. Once one sees the science being described as "darwinist" one knows that someone is pulling the same old, threadbare wool over your eyes. "Uncle Ed," ~~don't pretend~~ to want "fairness" with us! There is no substance in the "substance" you are peddling. ~~Your sort of dishonesty~~ has NO place in any encyclopedia. Report the facts (given the anti-intellectual superficiality of the press on any issues scientific, ~~you really should be satisfied~~) here as you will, but expect any creationist "spin" of the facts to be deleted immediatly. (May others pardon me for the rather sharp retort, but I would rather warn Ed someone's on his tail from the start than let him (?) pretend the usual la-di-da about "fairness" will allow him to rule other writers.) TheCryingofLot49 23:26, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please review Wikipedia:Avoid personal remarks. I have marked up with HTML strikeout formatting a few that you made about me. Uncle Ed 23:31, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've said enough, 'tis true, though I am unimpressed by your "corrections." I remain watchful. TheCryingofLot49 23:35, 28 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]