Talk:Holborn

Boundaries

Fleet Street and the Inner and Middle temple are actually in the City of London. I think including them in Holborn is stretching its boundaries way too far, I'm not even convinced that it should be anywhere outside the old Metropolitan Borough of Holborn. Any thoughts, anyone? Morwen 23:23, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree. Holborn was a river, then a street, and then an area around the street which became a Borough. In none of its manifestations has it ever been customary to characterise the western City of London as Holborn, and that knocks out Fleet Street and the Inner and Middle Temples.Chelseaboy 16:48, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

To say "river Fleet, now subterranean but once flowing parallel to where Kingsway now stands" is not helpful. The river Fleet ran along what is now Farringdon Road, Farringdon Street and New Bridge Street, some distance from Kingsway.

I also agree, furthermore there are many other comments which are simply incorrect, for example the image for 'Old Holborn' Tobacco is not the Prudential but Staples Inn, opposite, which isn't even mentioned. 79.75.2.246 (talk) 21:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)

"the first time anyone saw a gorilla"

I'm assuming that this is the first time that anyone in the UK had seen one; inhabitants of countries where the gorilla is a native species would surely beg to differ otherwise!--Alex Whittaker 22:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible WP:COPYVIO

Much of the "History" section seems to be the same as an article in Covent Garden Magazine, here

• Example from the magazine: The name Holborn is derived from a hamlet called Holebourne to the East which was established long before 1249, this name in turn is taken from the river Fleet, now subterraneous but it once flowed parallel to where Kingsway now stands. In the days when Holborn was a green oasis the Elizabethan herbalist John Gerard cultivated the land with much horticultural zeal. Here he was the first to catalogue over 1000 native species in a splendid prose tome which still exists to this day at the British Museum.
• Example, Wikipedia: The name Holborn is derived from a hamlet called Holebourne to the East which was established long before 1249, this name in turn taken from the river Fleet, now subterranean but once flowing under Farringdon Road/ Farringdon Street. In the days when Holborn was a sub-urban, the Elizabethan herbalist John Gerard cultivated the land with much horticultural zeal. Here he was the first to catalogue over 1000 native species which is housed at the British Library .

The WP entry was 2007-05-10. The magazine's Wayback Machine snapshot of 2007-04-19 includes the article, although the text is not preserved. --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Deleted. --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Course of the "Old Bourne"

I have removed the references to the alleged course of the Fleet and the 'bourne' which are wildly erroneous. It is simply impossible for a stream to run uphill from Temple Bar to Holborn Viaduct. 79.75.42.175 (talk) 18:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Tony S

Good point. Changed to "below" Holborn Viaduct (and not forgetting that the land surface was built up there when the Metropolitan Railway was constructed) thereby allowing the deleted material, with its two references, to be reinstated. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Afterthought: my pre-metrication Ordnance Map (1:25000 sheet TQ 28/38, published 1971) has Temple Bar on the 50-foot contour, whereas the 25-foot contour crosses Farringdon Road just a few feet south of the Viaduct. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I have reinstated the correct course of the Fleet or Bourne as it is impossible for any river to flow up hill from Temple Bar. Furthermore there is no other evidence of any river running in that direction. Why don't you go and look at the Temple Bar and walk from there to Holborn Viaduct and see that it cannot be done. 79.72.17.57 (talk) 19:10, 1 November 2008 (UTC) Tony S

The article states below Holborn Viaduct, in the valley of the Fleet River: the misread material and its citations restored accordingly. Please see WP:V regarding verifiable sources, which trump "you can see that it cannot be done." As it happens I was there last week (albeit going up the hill, east-to-west) and took the opportunity to check the point for myself. This is, of course, original research and of no value here. What counts is what can be checked by other editors from reliable, published sources. A good example would be the map I have cited above: any editor can check this and find that there is a 25 foot drop along the suggested course: not a torrent, but a perfectly viable flow in 600 or so yards. This makes three reliable sources. Any further deletion of cited material will seem like wilful vandalism. --Old Moonraker (talk) 22:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

The sources you quote are not authoritative and in fact erroneous. The Holborn and the Fleet are the same stream and as I pointed out rise at Hampstead. No rivers are locatable near Temple Bar. You can see this course clearly on early maps, eg Agas 1640s. Holborn / Fleet was culverted by the City to provide the Fleet Market. The Viaduct was built later 1875. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.72.253 (talk) 10:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

As the nineteenth century traffic overpass and the embanked ground around it seems to be the cause of confusion, "Holborn Viaduct" replaced with "Holborn Bridge", as in the source. --Old Moonraker (talk) 01:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes you are confused by the various public works over the centuries. 79.72.72.253 (talk) 10:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC) (Tony S)