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Talk:Black Flag (band)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Snarkout (talk | contribs) at 11:52, 13 October 2005. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Seems to be some debate (*1) about the connection (or lack thereof) between Black Flag (band) and Anarchy. I would agree that it overstates matters to describe them as an "anarchist" band in the opening paragraph (originally added 00:54, 25 May 2005 by Gstamets). Black Flag certainly does not belong in the "anarcho-punk" subgenre either (*2) - they did not wear their politics on their sleeves (and though the band often went shirtless, don't forget this was the pre-CD album-sleeve era).

Having said this, it is naive (at best) to suggest there was no connection between the Black Flag and Anarchism. This is why I added back the reference under the "Early History" section (actually, I made the reference point specifically to Anarchist Symbolism rather than Anarchy generally). Whether the connection was intended chiefly for shock value (arguably, all the Sex Pistols ever intended with their Anarchy references) or as a vague reference to left-leaning political tendencies, it would certainly be incorrect to associate Black Flag with right-leaning Nazi-skinhead types. (A mistake that could only come from missing the ironic intent of "White Minority" and ignoring that Puerto Rican Chavo Pederast was frontman when it was originally released on the Jealous Again EP.)

There is ample support for the connection between the anarchist symbol and the band name. In fact, the indications are that the Anarchy reference is primary and the Bug Spray reference is secondary (perhaps even an afterthought). Check out the many press interviews reproduced at http://www.dementlieu.com/~obik/arc/blackflag/press.html (a site which is already listed as an External Link). In the September 6, 1980 interview in Ripper 3, Chuck (Dubkowski) specifically states that it stands for Anarchy and Greg (Ginn) specifically confirms that "it's not the insect killer". In the November 27, 1980 interview in Flipside 22, Chuck elaborates: "It was Ray's (Greg's brother and BF artist) idea originally, they both floated around at the same time, even at the time of Panic we wanted another band called Black Flag which would be more of a threatening thing. The name has the connotation of anarchy, negation and all that." It is not until the March 17, 1981 interview in Capitol Crisis 5 that Dez (Cadena) says "We have a new thing now; Black Flag Kills Ants" and that's only after Chuck again confirms that Black Flag stands for anarchy.

The "Black Flag Kills Ants" thing came about as a result of Black Flag and Adam and the Ants playing at the same time in nearby clubs. The band had special t-shirts printed up with that slogan on them. This was sometime in '81, I believe, and it's become something of a legend. The whole thing dovetailed nicely with the developing friction between the up-and-coming hardcore crowd and the mellower new wave/new romantic/psuedo goth types.

In fact, at least as far as Chuck is concerned, it really might be appropriate to apply the label "anarchist" outright. In the same Marc 17 1981 Capitol Crisis 5 interview, after Dez says that they don't consider themselves a "political band," Chuck adds: "I'm not for or against any government in particular. I figure you've got to fight control, always." Chuck then says: "Political involvement IS the problem" and next confirms that his No-Rules philosphy, noting "My own rules are bad enough. I don't need anybody else's." These sure sound like anarchist sentiments to me. However, again, Chuck is no proselytizer or propagandist, stating earlier in the interview that he doesn't really care if fans wear swastikas and that "I'm not going to tell people what to wear, how to dress, how to act." In short, I agree that the reference and link to Anarchism in the article's opening paragraph was inappropriate.

User: Bendobay (63.205.184.207) - e-mail: [david@tp-options.com]

(*1) Pardon my newbie-ism at Wikipedia and my hamfisted first attempt at editing the page. I didn't even know about the history page or realize that there had been recent debate on the Anarchy issue. Learning from my mistake, I decided to make a minimalist change to the actual entry, and add my further suggestions here for incorporation (or not) by a more seasoned editor.

(*2) As a sidenote, it might make sense to restore the reference to "hardcore punk" in the opening paraphrase (which was in the article until some idiot changed it to "rock music" - which someone later corrected to "punk rock" which remains to now.)

Hardcore is what Black Flag was. Period.

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This has become the main Black Flag band page; please help to redirect links to here instead of the disambiguation page. --Damaged Again

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This page violates the Wikipedia NPOV by making it seem like Black Flag was all Ginn's doing and minimizing the hugely important role of Chuck Dukowski in Black Flag's sound. Ginn was certainly a great guitarist but without Dukowski there would have been no Black Flag, In the later years BF was more dominated by Rollins.

I added a paragraph about Dukowski's importance to Black Flag in an attempt to correct the neutrality dispute. Anon, 27 Sep, 2004 _______ Is there any possible reason to include the reference to a '90s Pittsburgh hardcore band? I'm going to assume this was someone's vanity edit and yank it if nobody objects. --Snarkout 11:52, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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