Talk:Vistula/Archive 1
A user:H.J. contribution (disputed) moved from the main article:
History
78.151.173.242 (talk) 00:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)Vystele or Vystule is the Lithuanian name for the twisty river (vystele, vytele, vystule comes from the word for the twist or a switch recognising the shape)...the same is and with the name weneds or wends ('vandenai'), it is Lithuanian name meaning the people living close to water...like pameranians 'pamarenai' means the people living on the shore of the sea...or the island of Rugen means the island in wich you can grow the rye (rye='rugiai')...in 'pamarenija' is one river called Persante which is the Lithuanian name meaning per-san-taka - through the river which fell into the sea...moreover slavs do not have words for the sea or the amber, so this meams that their ethnic land is somewhere around Slovakia and Kracow78.151.173.242 (talk) 00:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The name Vistula is probably "Old-European" ("Venedian" ?) and was recorded by Tacitus in 98 AD in his Agricola and Germania. During that time the Vistula River ran into the Mare Suebicum, which was later called Baltic Sea. According to him, near the delta lived the East Germanic tribes of the Suebi and Burgundians, on both banks the Goths and east of them the Aestii-Prussi, Galindi, Sudauer, Borusci, Veneti, Fenni-Finns, and more. There he described people on the most eastern part of the Mare Suebicum, the Finns.
However, Tacitus' knowledge of the different peoples was second-hand at best; as such, it should be taken with the proverbial grain of salt. He also used the term "Germans" not for describing ethnicity, for example when describing Wenets (Veneds, Venets), Peucyns and Fenns he wrote, that he isn't sure if he should call them Germans, since they have settlements and they fight on foot, or rather Sarmats since they have some similar customs to them.
Ptolemy also recorded the Germanic(?) tribes at the Vistula.
The Vistula river is only a short portage from the Dnieper River, and thence to the Black Sea. Boats could be rolled from one river to the next there. What later became the city of Kiev in the Ukraine was earlier known by its Gothic name of Danapirstadir "City on the Dnieper". The Baltic Sea-Vistula-Dnieper-Black Sea water route was one of the most ancient trade-routes, the Amber road, on which amber and other items were traded from Northern Europe to Greece, Asia, Egypt, and elsewhere.
removing the irrelevant mention of Prussians from the paragraph on the Ukraine: 'The Gothic historian Jordanis (550 AD) wrote about the Aesti-Prussi and a Bajuvarian historian in 850 AD wrote about the Brus.'. Note, it should be Ostrogothic, Jordanes, and Bavarian.
--- Is really Vistula Gothic? I've read that both names Tyniec and Wisla (Vistual) are Celtic and are used as a proofs that Celts lived in southern Poland once... szopen
Wixel , Wicsel or Wyxel is the old German spelling on maps I have seen.
Celts and Germanic people lived in confederations in Germania. (Keltic-Germanic Lugier, Lygier, Vandali. Markomanni- Boii-Suebi (men of the Mark)etc.
Poland did not come into existence till a thousand years later. Therefore Kelts did not have lived in Poland ( even though some areas, where Kelts in Germania lived, came in 1945 under Poland)
Goths lived between Baltic Sea and in all of Ukraine to Black Sea (Krim Goths) . Later city of Kiev was called Danapirstadir in Gothic. user:H.J.
I am not a linguist, so i can't argue here. However i used Poland in geographical sense, to describe territories which are called Little Poland and which from 990 or earlier to partitions were Polish. I've read that Celtic presence in Little Poland was quite strong, and as arguments in that book were given names like Vistula and Tyniec, but since, again, i am not a linguist, i have to believe to ethymology given in that book.
I've also read once that Goths indeed lived in Ukraine, but they live amongs Slavic tribes (since generally from two theories about origin of the Slavs, theory which place their homeland between Wisla and Dnieper is more probably than that which place that homeland between Odra and Wisla. szopen
I've read that Jordanes used name "Viskla" and "Vistula" when describing river of Wisla. Anyone had access to original text? szopen
- Not at hand, but I think that, since we say Vistula in English, that is probably what Jordanes used ;-) JHK
- The problem is, i had Polish translation of one fragment, and there once Vistula is called Wiskla, and once Wistula, so i am wondering how these were in original text (maybe it is just error of publisher?) szopen