Talk:Pitch axis theory

Relationshipt to Lydian Chromatic Concept

This a simpler way of looking at George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization, published in 1953. Nothing new, just, well, dumbed down to guitarists.

BTW, I am a guitarist.

• Actually, although perhaps a bit similar, this is not a simpler way of looking at the Lydian Chromatic Concept.
  
  For example, Dude (a rock guitarist who uses PAT as much as he can), and Cat (a jazz guitarist who approaches everything via LCC) get together to jam:
  
  Dude creates a chord progression using PAT, say Emaj7, Em7, E7, Emaj7, and thinks E Lydian (or Ionian), E Dorian (or any other minor 7 scale/mode), E Mixolydian, E Lydian as he solos over the changes.
  
  Cat on the other hand is thinking E Lydian, G Lydian, D Lydian, E Lydian if he wants to play "inside" and "vertically" (roughly meaning "with the chord changes"), he may also decide to go "outside" a bit and think E Lydian Augmented, G Lydian Diminished, D Lydian b7, E Lydian (back inside again), as an example. He finds his LCC tonic for the chord he's on, then selects his scale color. It gets a lot more involved, but that's the gist of it.
  
  ... Oh, and I am also a guitarist, FWIW
  
  *--Tedclaymore (talk) 22:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Chart is wrong

The chord progression for "Lie" shows a B diminished not a B minor. Didn't check any of the other chords, but that one at least is definately wrong.

Pretty correct. That image must be taken care of.59.93.215.168 (talk) 17:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Relationship to Modal Jazz

-Isn't this just basic music theory? Miles Davis used modes all the time in his compositions. See 'modal jazz'

• This is similar to Modal Jazz, but not exactly the same thing. In most modal jazz tunes, the composition is based on one mode (say Dorian). Usually a single tonic (say D) is used for an extended period as well (D Dorian for 16 bars...) but there may be some tonic relief as the tune switches to a different tonic (say Eb Dorian for 8 bars). Pitch access theory doesn't change the tonic. It changes the modes/scales/chords built up from the tonic. To my ears, the effect is rather similar (though not identical), but the approach to composing and improvising is a bit different.
  
  --Tedclaymore (talk)

• • Then should something be said in the main article? --Rfsmit (talk) 21:26, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Need sources

What the hell is "pitch axis theory"? If you learnt this from a credible book/website, then tell me what book/website you learnt it from. If you learnt it from banter on an internet forum, then you know as much as I do, which is *not* enough for Wikipedia. This article reads like a piece of pseudoscience, and I'm partially convinced it is just made up internet hearsay. Please prove me wrong, because it sounds like a very interesting idea (yes, I'm hoping this is real, but I'm calling "bullshit" just because we won't know anything until somebody backs it up).

A Google search on "pitch axis theory" gives me i) this Wikipedia page, ii) sites quoting this page, iii) a bunch of infomercials, and iv) the occasional very spurious quote with the use of the term by one of three guitar players (I'm sure you can guess who they are).

So come on, if you are an advocate of this theory, tell me where you learnt it from, and be honest. If there can be found no sources to back up the claims of this page, it should be removed. It has been tagged as unsourced for two years already. (217.155.61.70 (talk) 01:14, 12 February 2009 (UTC))

I am not an advocate of the the theory, but I don't think the page ought to be removed. (I originally arrived here looking Lydian Chromatic Concept, hoping to have an online source to direct someone to).

As nearly as I can tell, the name is applied by Satriani, who claims that he learned it from a music teacher. He further claims that the technique was developed in the early 20th century (or perhaps the late 19th).

I have this link for your reference (interview with Satriani). http://www.musicplayers.com/features/guitars/2006/0606_Joe_Satriani.php

I've noted Satriani has mentioned this in guitar periodicals for quite some time (at least since the 90's, but perhaps as far back as the 80's).

I have a number of texts on Harmony, but the closest I can find to what Satriani seems to be talking about is called "Modal Mixture" by Piston [Harmony, 5th Ed. 1987 pp 514-517.], perhaps with the addition of a pedal point or ostinato base. The article is currently linking to "Polymodal Chromaticism", which may also be close in a sense, but my understanding there is that the modes may be used simultaneously, whereas PAT seems to be serial in nature.

So, Satriani may have applied his own name (or he may have a source that calls it exactly that... music theory is notorious for having different terms for the same concept from different reputable sources), but the theory appears to be documented in music theory literature. And even if his term is "incorrect", his term seems to be catching on. When I search Google, I also see this article and pages referencing it, but I'm also seeing a number of pages 'teaching' the theory.

I can see an argument for merging this article with Joe Satriani, or even creating an article for Modal Mixture (which I can source), but an outright deletion seems to be overkill.

Tedclaymore (talk) 01:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

We don't need to remove the whole thing, just the bits that can't be backed up with sources. Unfortunately, with the sources so far, that is the majority of the article. Sure, that interview gives us that Joe Satriani uses the term Pitch Axis Theory, and that it is a compositional technique involving changes of key over a repeated bass note. What about that table under concept? Where did that come from? That's a lot more specific, and definitely needs a source (though I believe this bit may be false, given that one out of the only two examples given does not follow it exactly). The way JS talks about it in the interview, it's used everywhere, like dance and hip-hop and stuff (which i. is not such a narrow definition as proposed here, where a key shift must be matched with certain chords, and ii. suggests there should be a lot more examples from different genres to look at). I've found one website that says a simple shift between major and minor pentatonic (like a lot of electric blues players do) is a type of PAT. I know a lot of Scottish folk tunes that are predominantly hexatonic and play around the alternative diatonic completions (like switching between Mixolydian and Dorian, or Dorian and minor, with the same root), do these use PAT? On the one hand, this phrase seems to be used only by a very few select guitarists, and on the other hand it seems to describe a technique used by a lot of people, in all kinds of instruments and genres. I'm totally getting that this is an alternative name for something everybody else calls something else, but I can't figure out what; the linked pages are similar, but not quite the same. 217.155.61.70 (talk) 23:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)