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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by JPLogan (talk | contribs) at 01:58, 8 November 2005 (Updated scientific views in the opening). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

reframing

So, here is another blatant example of POV pushing against NLP. The article contains a section that says "Behind every behavior is a positive intention". I added an explanation that this is sometimes called reframing. [1]. This gets blanked reverted by DaveRight [2] simply saying "You are erroneous" and reverting multiple edits.

Case in point, DaveRight is in fact erroneous. According to Dilts, the "Behind every behavior is a positive intention" concept is called "reframing". You can verify this by going to an article written by Dilts titled "The NLP Pattern of the Month: Reframing" subtitle The Principle of Positive Intention [3].

THere is no excuse for this blanket reversion approach by DaveRight. There is no justification for deleting this parenthetical that is it sometimes called "reframing", given that a notable NLP source specifically associates the "positive intention" thing with the term "reframing". And yet, the anti-NLP editors are deleting accurate reporting of a pro-NLP source. FuelWagon 04:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I believe your reframing addition was incorrect Fuelwagon. But I changed it to fit in for the sake of compromise. Your other edits were definitely incorrect..Bookmain 04:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Many NLP items fall under multiple headings. Thus its core principles are also, functionally, presuppositions, and may be used as reframes since they put existing information into a new frame (viewpoint). This is a bit like saying "See, its not a Catholic, its an African". In other words, pointless to argue, both are right, it is a concept that is a principle, and also a reframe, and also a presupposition. FT2 05:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fine FT2. But I did change the line to be more correct..Bookmain 06:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration

In view of the fact that

  1. Users HeadleyDown and JPLogan (and others) have consistently shown little idea of, and minimal respect for, Wiki policy and have shown this for some time now
  2. There has been ongoing aggressive POV warring by these two (and possibly others) in the NLP article. [4] and [more references to follow] and possibly also [5] (by DaveRight; although it is citations, it seems a very slanted group of citations)
  3. At least one editor has called the results of their work "some of the most biased editing I've read... If you're a POV warrior using Wikipedia to advocate against something, you need to find a different encyclopedia to edit" [6]
  4. Valid and significant information based on original material are deleted by them on a frequent basis or replaced with POV wording. Established fact such as what NLP itself has identified as its goal, or direct textual based information, is described as "NLP claims.." and "supposedly...", ie weasel words. Example reversion: [7]
    Example - this text, comprising major corrections and explanations of what exactly NLP says, and including some citations and references, is based on citable source material, and this was noted on the Talk page. Despite this, it was reverted to a less complete and moderately inaccurate once [8], then again [9] and yet again [10] by HeadleyDown, despite at least two requests on the Talk page to identify any specific statements that were inaccurate or not common knowledge, which request was also ignored multiple times.
  5. Concerns over NPOV are met with personal attack or repeatedly treated with contempt. [11] and [12]
  6. Questions to ascertain extent of knowledge were ignored many times. Example: [13] and [14]
  7. Ignorance of fundamental subject material, as demonstrated by lack of knowledge of full research, and edits to material changing it from material represented in NLP texts, to material of non-standard (but pseudoscience style) authors, which is then used as evidence it is pseudoscience. [references coming shortly]
  8. Requests to discuss reverts on the talk page first, or to state exactly which facts were disputed, were ignored or dismissed [15]
  9. On several occasions, facts (or the significance of some material) appear to have been invented, exaggerated, selectively chosen, or not checked at all, and equally valid facts not desired by the above-named to be suppressed, attacked or reverted. Example: [16] (Deletion of commonly ignored source model despite citation) and [17] (claim that critic is "world renowned" and performed "research" when he is a comparative nobody and wrote basically just an article)
  10. The article does not actually even describe NLP as it stands (!)
  11. Mediation was attempted and seems to have failed before I got here
  12. I have attempted to make a start to sort out basic issues both on a separate page, and via a section explicitly described as"Not for flames but for better understanding of the issues", and again on HeadleyDown's talk page (with thanks and courtesy), all flamed in reply, typical response to label it "evangelism" and accuse of bias (again) [18]
  13. When I eventually got HeadleyDown's (somewhat grudging) agreement to mediation, within hours of thanking him and giving factual private explanations for discussion, intended to help bridge the gap, HeadleyDown's response was personal attack and POV warring against even that.
  14. I have given several warnings, as have other editors [19] that if this continues, Arbitration will result, possibly including an article ban, and asked for collaboration and a cooling down to avoid that. But nothing has improved. [20] and [21] and [22]
  15. As a result of the above aggressive POV warring and other persistent breaches of wikipedia policy, progress on the article has been and is being unacceptably stalled by the inability of these people to grasp basic concepts such as "NPOV", "courtesy" and "writing for the enemy", despite many requests by multiple editors, and courteous reminders that it will not be acceptable if it continues.

I am inclined to take the matter of these two editors, and possibly others, to the Arbitration Committee. If so, it will not be on the broad "he said/she said", or "Group A/Group B" basis that the request for Mediation was based upon. It will be directly undertaken myself, and specifically for aggressive POV warring, personal attacks, and persistent irreconcilable non-compliance with wikipedia policies by HeadleyDown, JPLogan and possibly others (to be decided).

Please vote below if you would be supportive, against, or have other opinions on this matter at this time. Note that ArbCom does not in fact require a consensus to accept a matter, so this is more a "straw poll" of feeling. (Sock puppets and suspected sock puppets, including unknown anon IPs, may be ignored) But I would want to think very carefully about such a step if mediation may yet succeed, or if I am in fact alone in thinking this is appropriate.

  • Support FT2 07:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comaze 09:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Lee1 10:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support FuelWagon 18:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC) I believe my first edit to this article was about a week ago, on 22:04, 26 October 2005, in which the very first sentence of the article opened like this: Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a pseudoscientific development proposed for programming the mind, I removed the POV declaration that NLP is factually declared to be pseudoscientific. [23]. Things have not improved much in the week or so since then. And it seems clear that NPOV policy is either grossly misunderstood by a number of editors or simply being flagrantly ignored. Numerous attempts to explain NPOV have been ignored. I don't have experience with the whole history of this article and all 16 points, but I support the notion that NPOV policy is not being followed here. ANd I'd be willing to submit evidence to arbitration regarding my experience on the NLP article.[reply]
  • Support [Not to be counted for now, see below] GregA 203.217.56.137 11:42, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, user:203.217.56.137. But you have only the one contribution under this address, and traditionally people with few edits are notrmally asked not to vote on matters like this, to avoid suspicion that they are accounts created by one "side" or the other just for the purpose. If you have an account, or have regularly watched this debate, and are not just a sock puppet, please feel free to edit your post adding more information why your vote should be included even though you have never made other contributions to the encyclopedia under this IP. It's not personal, I'm sure you are bona fide, but I'm sure you understand that even the appearance of bias would be best avoided, in the interest of scrupulous fairness, especially as there have been sock puppet accusations between other editors in the past. Please reply if you feel there are facts to consider that will change this, or indeed, contribute to the discussion. FT2 12:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry FT2. Yes I've posted plenty here I think you'll agree. Any probs let me know - sorry about the IP address. GregA 05:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comments

Hello FT2. Considering your recent additions of your own views to the article, I suggest that you need to go back to the reality check stage. We are in the constructive process of mediation, and if you hadn't noticed, the mediator is working well. He has even been moving or deleting criticisms from sections that your promoter team demanded to have supplied by neutral editors but then decided not to like. VoiceOfAll is working well for now. In future arbitration is always an option. I think it would be silly to pass up such a tolerant mediator as the present one. Regards AliceDeGrey 10:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

VofAll has been working on the mediation. Small edits to the article have taken place. But the personal attacks, the major POV warring, and the instant dismissal (as you have done yourself) of anyone seeking NPOV as part of "the pro group" or a "promoter" is not apparently being resolved by mediation, and this is what I am seeking to visit ArbCom with. Adequate requests and courtesy have been given, adequate concern was given that if the personal attacks and vehement warring continued then it would probably be felt that mediation was de facto doomed, and not only by me, and the situation is not fundamentally changed or likely to change; personal attacks and POV warring contuinue despite all the above.
ArbCom state that either mediation has formally failed, or reasons why you believe it will be fruitless. My reasons for believing the latter is the case, are given above, and I believe ultimately mediation will be fruitless and is doomed, because there is simply no sign whatsoever that Headley or JPLogan can comprehend wikipedia's meaning of "neutral" or other key WP policies. Please see WP:Arb
FT2 10:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


No support. Just patience. HeadleyDown 12:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Hello FT2. I think you are treating VoiceOfAll's expert efforts unfairly. He has stepped in to remove direct insults, and has made very clear instructions of what you should and should not do (eg accusations section). It still seems to me that further exploration towards actual proceedings is in order. As you said, personal attacks etc. These do indeed need to be resolved. I think I am coming closer to an answer that is more related to how we resolve differences.

For example. One way to go, is to continue fulfilling the issues requirements that VoiceOfAll has provisionally set out. I can see we are getting closer to doing that. Certainly I have plenty of information that can help out there.

I have tried to point out people's clear biases and they tend to be based on vested and reputational interests (NLP teachers). But I realise there will always be fanatics who will come here to deface the facts.

I wish somehow to resolve that to some extent also. I'm wondering whether giving the article a more educational flavour may help (eg, pointing out the difference between science and pseudoscience etc). Whatever way is fine.

I am a patient person and also agree that arbitration is a long way off. You have been here only a short while and you are calling for arbitration already. I think most people would feel that is rash. Also, I feel people should be a lot more patient considering the compromises already made by the mediator and non promoters. Certainly, the mediator is a force of good for wikipedia and has proven to handle things well. So I consider him a friend to all wikipedians. A good force to work with. 203.186.238.214 12:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC) HeadleyDown 12:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Wow FT2. That is an extremely appetising offer!.. Can you imagine- Comaze and others reverting facts during the arbitration, so called NLP experts adding the wrong theories, other so called NLP experts inadvertently adding pseudoscientific argument and refs about engrams and then trying to delete them (even though engrams are scientifically recognised and support the notion that NLP is science:), you adding your own biased views without supplying citations (because they don't exist). ANd you have not even slightly opened my can of NLP worms that I have stored away. Mmm, Yummy! However, I do think you have not given it enough time. As you have most definitely not represented the present mediation with any view to neutrality, I don't think you will be able to handle arbitration at all, let alone the article itself. With respect, its a nice offer, but you would do very nicely with VoiceOfAll on all balance. Best regards DaveRight 10:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, it's so very kind of you to consider what we will do 'very nicely' with. I've never known you to be so concerned before. Thanks Lee1 11:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

See above comment to User:203.217.56.137 for what neutrality means, Dave.
Also, please check your facts, which you (in common with Headley and Logan) are often abysmal at doing when it doesn't suit you:
  1. ...So lets see. I can find citations for any facts in doubt, but as I don't know what is common ground on this, I'll list what I see, and you can always ask for a source citation on any points raised. Would that work for you?... (my edit of 05:41, October 30, 2005) [24]
  2. ...No claims or statements are made that are unverifiable as far as I can tell, 4/ It explains both terms. Any criticisms please bring here, do not full-revert as I am unaware of anything controversial or disputed written in that section... (my edit of 16:01, October 29, 2005) [25]
Additionally, in terms of NPOV, how does this rate: ...Can anyone think of a good new religious name for NLP? How about The Church of New Rolling Wizdicks?DaveRight 06:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)... [26]
Last, because I think you really need to consider your own actions as an editor (I did say it wasn't just Headley and Logan), did you notice that User:VoiceOfAll(MTG) and User:FuelWagon asked you to cite a source [27] "...[Please tweak the article] so that it has some indication of how many view it as pseudoscience. Has there been some sort of poll you could cite? Otherwise, "often regarded" is a little too fuzzy. Perhaps there is some psychologist/psychotherapist organization that has come out saying that NLP is pseudoscience, and you can report that?..."
Your response to this request for a citation was as follows: "...Sure, VoiceOfAll. Apart from all the psychologists, psychotherapists, and linguists, The British Society of Psychologists calls NLP pseudoscientific" [28]
Not only is that a completely groundless and patently untrue avoidance of a citation, whats worse is, the one fact you did allege is also false, because you didn;t check your facts. In fact not even the BPS agrees with you. They don't count it as pseudoscience in the sense you are describing, much less "complete charletanary" as was in the article.
The BPS's actual stance, if you had cared to check for yourself, is that they count it along with Psychotherapy, Cognitive behavior therapy and Hypnotherapy [29] as fields supervised by the other main UK accrediting body in the psychotherapy field, the UK College of Psychotherapists. This is a major European accrediting body. If you check their view on NLP, you'll find that the Association of NLP International has had a seat on the governing board not too long ago [30] and also that the ANLP's Counselling and Therapy arm is still a member in good standing as at 2005 [31]. "Pseudoscience"? Or POV warriors?
FT2 12:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello FT2. I can see that you are not using the libraries to your advantage. Stop surfing and start researching. HeadleyDown 14:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Admin warning: Please Wikipedia:avoid personal remarks. It's not your place to tell other editors what to do. Uncle Ed 21:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Uncle Ed wanders by

I was asked (via private e-mail) to take a look at this.

  1. Even a quick glance suffices to discover that there is too much sarcasm here.
  2. FuelWagon is right: You must say that "Smith states that NLP is pseudoscience".

Please review Wikipedia:Avoid personal remarks and Wikipedia:POV. Uncle Ed 19:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"X states that NLP is pseudoscience" is what I have been saying is the NPOV way to have criticism, so we should all agree here by now. And yes, the sarcasm here is over the top.

Also, lets not talk about arbitration right now, as that is by no means effective nor necessary.Voice of All T|@|Esperanza 20:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]

Hi, VoA,
As you will see, I left a query about this on your talk page, as a courtesy, but never got a reply. Its possible you were away a bit or didn't see it. But either way, my concerns (as regards mediation) are these:
  1. I have sought reconciliation with Headley. I have put effort into it despite insults and accusations. It doesn't seem to have worked, see his talk page and list of grounds for referral above for my reasons for feeling this.
  2. The bottom line of the matter is virulent POV warring. I have tried, but I just don't see any sign of change on that, and unless it stops - totally - then ultimately mediation as I have said, is doomed to fail too.
  3. I know mediation's best, when it works, and you'll see from Headley's talk page that I tried, and from this talk page that I ignored several insults and POV edits and at least a few personal attacks, to do so. Please see my reply to Alice above, why I feel mediation is likely to fail, and hence why I feel an ArbCom referral is not premature.
  4. If you have reasons to believe that NPOV will be reached on this article, then can you let me know your basis for that feeling? Because to be honest, I just don't see it, and I've mediated informally a fair few wikipedia disputes. The gap seems too wide.
If you can reassure me, I'll listen. The difficulty is that I don't see that kind of progress being at all likely. I had offered Headley mediation, and told him quite clearly in 2 or 3 places that if declined by his actions Arbitration would be the next resort. His reply has been a continuation of personal remarks, attacks, and POV warring, and complete denial of even a "this is a basis for discussion". So I now feel referral to ArbCom has become clearly appropriate. This isn't just sarcasm. This is fairly heavily slanted POV article warring. The sad truth is, that apart from picking selectively every negative sounding quote they can find and citing it, I have not really seen Headley or Logan contribute anything much about NLP, in a wikipedia fashion, to this article. Headley today asserts that "This article gives the sum human knowledge of NLP as it stands."
Even despite this, most of their major citations when actually examined in context are not only slanted, but routinely unrepresentative or factually misrepresented, sometimes grossly so. Morgan was. Heap was. British Physchological Society was. NLP description is. And so on. Other contributions of theirs are invented or unsourced and flagrantly inaccurate. many other editors have complained too, recently, and I get the impression that they don't seem to feel mediation is helping enough.
If you feel I am mistaken, can we discuss it by email? I can be reached on my public email, "contactbox" AT "softhome" DOT "net". Thanks - and sorry for the lack of optimism.
FT2 21:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Uncle Ed and VoiceOfAll. Your wish is my command. Or something like that:) Thanks for the input. I will do my best to remove my temper. And clearer attribution has been requested, and so it will be followed. Best regards HeadleyDown 01:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Headley. But actually your temper does not need controling. As I said before, simply stop engaging people who repeatedly badger after you have answered already. Its just a trolling tactic they use, and as above, they will re-post your response to leverage their POV. Just keep providing the good research you have and constructively answering valid questions as you have. I'm not telling you what to do, this is just a friendly reminder. As usual you are correct about no need for mediation, and your responses generally follow Voiceofall's requests extremely well. Cheers JPLogan 01:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The problem JPL is, that most of the "answers" given have not actually been answers. Typical answers have included "All therapists know it". Or where specific points are raised but not discussed, brushed aside in a non-scientific manner. That is why people keep asking again. because you sometimes actually have to answer the question properly, not just keep saying say why you don't think it merits closer examination or why you think you have answered it. FT2 14:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Following the latest revert by HeadleyDown, in which he reverted a sourced, neutral, title-description of NLP by its founders, saying it was "promotional", I'm afraid I feel this is the last sign that mediation could, or will, work. The text added to the introduction, the formal description of NLP according to its creators. This was fully described on the talk page, and sourced. My above feelings seem to be confirmed. I am sorry, VoiceOfAll, I shall be asking ArbCom to handle this. It seems from the straw poll above that this is not a solo decision. If they reject it, then I will understand and try to work with this more, but the POV warring here is persistent, learning is not happening or intended to happen, and (insofar as Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a game, with policies), this is not okay.

FT2 15:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Hello FT2. I am simply being cooperative. If you wish to move antagonistically against mediation and compromise, then that is your choice. I feel you will find yourself in the minority. If you notice the numerous compromises made towards the promoters then you would not make such a decision. Believe me. You are welcome here, but your extreme moves in the light of the summer of extreme moves is simply a repeat of what went on before and failed. I do not wish to distract you from your own decisions, but I have been here for quite a while, and arbitration seems to be quite a few horizons away. I personally am open to many options. I and others here have made many compromises and will probably be open to others who are willing to shed real light on this subject. Otherwise, your efforts are directed to whichever cliff you wish to climb. Regards HeadleyDown 15:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Proposed merger of promotional NLP site

Hello all. The proposal to merge a speculative and promotional NLP site with wikipedia is completely unacceptable. The information is conflicting, mixed up, unverifiable, unfairly presented, unfactual and so on. It is not up to wikipedia to rescue failing websites and wikispam is also completely unacceptable. Lets just get on with resolving those 2 remaining issues. HeadleyDown 06:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]




Science solution

As mentioned in many places above it seems to me that science may be the solution to a lot of problems here. For example, I noticed that the engram is actually an incredibly persistent issue in psychology and neurology, and that is probably why it is used by NLP theorists. I had a look at the engram page, and it seems to be totally wrong. Not only is it vague, but it is also wrongly attributed to dianetics.

As the engram really is a strong ongoing research stream in neuroscience and psychology amongst other sciences, I suggest that the NLP promoters start accepting it as a concept. We have tried to represent it scientifically here, but promoters/practitioners keep trying to remove that explanation.

One way to do this would be to represent the engram properly as a scientific subject on the engram page. The engram is the memory trace that represents learning and has a very good science history. It is generally construed on the holistic level, just like NLP uses it, and its diagramatic representations match those of the NLP diagrams. It is different from the way dianetics uses the engram concept. There are papers on critiquing the dianetics engram as it is very flawed scientifically. Have a go at the engram page and that will probably help your case enormously. Regards JPLogan 02:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Now there's a good compromise. I can clarify on the article also! DaveRight 03:15, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd go with that. If the problem is that engrams are badly described, then lets solve that one. Personally I think JPL is on the ball here, what may have happened is that although not used in original formulations of NLP, *if* the concept was in science *and* was sensible and credible, then NLP theoreticians may have started to refer to it. the problem then might be that the engrams article is misleading. Trouble is, that article, at present, does not say what NLP says, nor was it used in original formulations... which may be why some people are removing it. Clean it up, and lets see if it then says what NLP is saying. FT2 11:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Yes I also think this is a good idea. It will clarify things a lot. HeadleyDown 11:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


I'm not sure where that's going but it's interesting. So NLP primary texts don't refer to engrams themselves, but to concepts which sound the same as engrams (to someone who knows engrams). However psychology and scientology define engrams differently, and the current Wikipedia page on engrams does not remotely sound similar to the concepts written about in NLP primary texts. Therefore, we should rewrite the wikipedia article on engrams to match the understanding of engrams that correspond with the NLP concepts, so that we can simplify the concepts of NLP by simply saying "see 'engrams'". ...interesting.... GregA
Not quite. Its a suggestion that if there is anything useful in "engrams", or it has multiple uses and definitions, maybe if that article was more complete and covered and cited scientific views or NLP views or scientology views or whatever too, then we'd maybe end up able to say "some modern NLP writers compare NLP's understaning of X to modern scientific views on Engrams", and it would then be accurate. Thats a new field to me too. If, as JPL suggests, NLP texts refer to concepts which are similar to "engrams", then thats worth knowing. The trouble is, the article on Engrams doesn't have any way to check that with at all, because its not itself describing the term fully and sounds like mumbo jumbo anyhow. Thats my understanding of what JPL is saying, anyhow. FT2 13:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hallo. The NLP trainers I know in Europe and Russia use the term engrams in different ways to each other. But I think the suggestion is good. Certainly it should be stated that Hubbard's engrams are different from science and NLP's engrams. That is what encyclopedias are good for. The engram page said dianetics uses engrams (just after a scientific description) last time I looked. Just find a book that says the dianetics engram koncept is wrong, and Bob is your uncle:) From my understanding, Hubbard engrams are about pain. Science does not give them such a negative view, they are just representations of learning in the neurons. Also Hubbard talks about demons as part of them:) Read Dianetic, the science and technik of achievement. It is very funny:) Hubbard went from science fiction to fiction science:) But engrams were taught as a holist theoretical koncept in my undergraduate psychology. There is nothing wrong with it and the research is still following it even for finding where the engram is in the parts of the brain. When I read Bandler and amigos I do not see demon engrams, but I do see mental pathways and circuits of scientific proposed engrams. HansAntel 03:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the input Hans. We certainly need some world views and more scientific views here. Regards..JPLogan 09:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Most NLP theorizing is bunk, but...

Much of the pure scientific aspects of the discussion here are things which I am not well versed in, however, the "success seminar" angle is something I am familiar with, though not the Tony Robbins "I can cure you" kind. Suffice it to say, the usable application to be found here is in helping people steer their minds to a more effective premise in critical areas.

For example, there is a "success saying" which goes like this: "Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position".

I have found from experience that if you can get someone with low self-esteem and/or high self-doubt to truly believe that, they will then start regularly thinking that things can and will get better for them.

Recent case in point: A close friend of my family is in her 40's, overwieght, smokes, is out of work and 3 months past due on her mortgage. As a condition of helping her with enough $$ to get current on the mortgage (between me and her father, we bridged the gap), she was oblidged to come see me face to face for an hour, to get the check. At this meeting, I first made sure of the tally of the required $$, then I reminded her that I'd known her for 8 years and never once butted into her pesonal life. "Thats' true", she confirmed. So then, here is what I explained to her: I said "look, you are about to lose your house and you are spending over $150 a month on cigarettes, what the hell are you doing?" There was no argument on this point and then I explained an NLP "success saying". I said "look Susie (pen name for this), I am giving you this $$ because we care about you, but let me tell you something, the secret I am about to tell you is worth over 100 times more and here it is: Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position".

"It's that simple, all you have to do is stop telling yourself you can't and start telling yourself you can. After a certain point, you really will understand that your mind has stretched and you will know that it's not going back to where it was. You will be a different, better person than you are now".

I also gave here an easy translation Bible and set her to reading Proverbs, explaining that she needed some new grist for the mill (of her mind), such as "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid".

Anyway, the long and the short of it was this all happened about 8 weeks ago. Since then, she has quit smoking, got a job and started a diet/excercize program. When she called me 2 weeks ago to give an update, it was clear that she was convinced that her mind both can stretch and was in the process of stretching. She was really much happier, etc.

Now, will she stay that way? I say yes, if she actually does believe that her mind can stretch and if she works at stretching it. So to wrap this up, this NLP stuff, so far as I can see, really only works when you have a subject who is ready, willing and able to focus their mind effectively. The results come not as a consequence of he suggestion (the "programming"), but rather, as a consenquence of the subject actually focusing intensly on the target - it's the power of sustained postive expectations, nothing more. Those who claim to have developed a structured system of tapping into how people think and steering it via NLP are just putting a fancy name on helping people believe "Yes!, I can". A good football coach already does this; think "the Tuna", Bill Parcells.

In my view, helping people focus and moving them forward in life is the only worthwile application for this technology and frankly, the rest of it (I feel) is a bunch of crap dreamed up by people who are interested in considering themselves superior "Hah! see how I led that person around by the nose"...

Also, it really only works if the suggestion being made is an actual macro-truth - as in always true for everyone. In my mind, I always have available this: "Your mind is not like a rubber band, once it stretches, it does not go back to it's original position" as an absolute certainty and am always ready to share anecdotal proof that it's true with anyone who asks or othrwise displays interest. Personally, I am fully convinced that the reason why this particular suggestion works (if genuinely apprehended by the subject) is because it's true about all people, all the time.

Rex071404 216.153.214.94 08:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Welcome Rex. Thanks for your input. Yes, you have some clear perceptions about the subject. NLP is generally promoted as a science or scientifically sounding for the sake of sales with no serious effort to test and verify. Regards HeadleyDown 11:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi rex.
I think the problem comes down to this: the founders of NLP chose the word "programming" for its cybernetics connotations (in the 1960's) -- and they chose really badly, because the word is ubiquitous in cults and suggestion, where it means something like instilling, often by suggestion, another person's or a cult's ideas, into a more suggestible person.
NLP is very badly named, no question of it. A better term would be neuro-linguistic patterning. It's not about instilling via self-belief. Its closer to instilling by pattern-modification. If you tie an unfamiliar knot 100 times, your muscles learn the new pattern; belief has nothing to do with it.
NLP says, that everything a person does, can potentially be viewed at that level, if we knew how. It says you can in principle (and with varying degrees of difficulty and skill), rewire dysfunctional patterns of thinking and behavior to make them more productive, and you can study how others who are highly capable structure their internal habitual ways of being, and adopt ones similar, and that these may help you learn to become more capable too. It says that if you could establish a less reflexive connection between seeing and strong feeling, then just maybe a phobic won't have to have such a strong negative sensation when they see whatever stimulus is involved, and that this doesn't require understanding of the past, its almost an engineering process mentally speaking - disconnecting or weakening a connection.
Trance, or hypnosis, is seen as useful since it bypasses the conscious mind (which isn't really that relevant when working with unconscious internalized habits anyway), and more importantly bypasses conscious dissection and analysis which tend to favor and rationalize the status quo and can thus block alternative learnings.
Here is an example of NLP from my own recent experience:
I had a long distance friend, who was agoraphobic. He panicked on planes, could barely handle buses, couldn't visit malls. The real clinical thing. He didn't understand why, in fact he'd only just discovered there was a medical term for all these vague different situations he felt panic in. Really bad, really screwing up his life. To cut a long story short, we discovered something fascinating. What was going on was, that somewhere in his visual processing, far away things were being subtlely distorted in his perception. Not enough to notice, but enough to have a vague "something feels wrong" sense when he looked at far away things. The closer something was, the more clear, "normal" and bright it looked. The further away, the more it was subtlely, weirdly, ever so slightly fuzzy and somehow distorted. It was so subtle, he wasn't consciously aware of it at all, until we explored how exactly he "saw". Naturally it then makes perfect sense to me that he had agoraphobia. Every time he looked at closer things, he felt okay, every time he looked at far away things he got this unconscious subtle feeling of unease. And where do you see far away things...? Outdoors, in malls, on transport. So every time he's in big spaces he's feeling unease... small spaces he's not... classic conditioning. So the remedy we used was, first, to check how far away he could see something and not feel it was distorted, and then practice seeing things undistorted further away. We also worked on being curious about things, textures, perspectives, rather than just ignoring them, to give him a different way to look at big scenes and see detail within them. Very practical, very commonsense, and very pragmatic. And about as far from "wholism" or "unable to describe" as it gets.
That is what NLP means, when it talks about pattern and program, and "subjective reality". Not idiocy like instilling belief, or cults, or wish-wash. Pure observation and exploration of how people do this thing we call "behavior" and "awareness", and the skill to nail down through the haze, exactly at what point it's gotten dysfunctional. Yes, some trainers do use personal charisma of suggestibility to instill belief... but that's charisma based stuff utilizing NLP, it's not actually NLP.
Hope that helps, rex. FT2 11:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


I think Rex is being more insightful than you realise, FT2. Notice the healthy lack of doctrine in his words. Looks like an open mind. You see the problem with the "subjective reality" part is that NLP proposes that they know the structure of it.

The reality is, they have no clue about the structure. Or more accurately, they have chosen clues which are not accurate. Well, I don't claim to have the answers on that one, but if I did claim it, I may make some money. It is a wild claim in itself. It presupposes that you can learn to do what Einstein did without the immense energy and talent he threw into all his years of obsessive explorations and so on.

Plus the theorizing that goes on within NLP is wild and unconnected. Going from Chomsky's theoretical and untested grammar to a method that is supposed to make you a wizard is a huge leap indeed. And one that makes practitioners fall flat every time from the look of things.

So far promoters don't seem to have persuaded anybody about the science/technology/amazing magic of NLP apart from themselves. That seems to verify the research done on NLP. I do not wish to antagonize here though. Merely to act as a mirror. Science and common sense are the best way to go meta. Regards HeadleyDown 12:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think thats part of the problem. Subjective reality is nothing more or less than "you don't see everything the same way I do; I don't experience as you do". Every good book on therapy or communication or parenting will emphasize somewhere, "Don't assume they think and feel as you do, because they don't". So I don't think the "subjective reality" part is that controversial. It says, that if you make a blanket assumption that what life's like for them is (in every way) not going to be how you assume it is for you -- you'll be more right than wrong.
We don't know the structure of human experience and reality. Like science, NLP tries to say, "these are ueful concepts and structures". The Bohr atom was wrong, so technically was Newton, and so in time probably will be Einstien's models too. But the concepts they introduced are valued because they give us ways to think about and model reality that are more accurate than we had before them. NLP suggests a way to think about how people's inner world is structured, that is capable of being more precise in some ways than what's gone before, and less precise than what will follow.
It says one can break down what a person does and believes, and what they think of as possible, then puts it back together in a more effective way, analogous to sports coaching. You can't "be" Einstein. But when Einstein tried to explain where he got his ideas, he described sitting on the end of a light beam. That, for Einstein, appeared to be a crucial step in how he innovated relativity -- he placed himself in unusual positions. What would happen to my perception, if I was on the event horizon, or travelling with light? That's NLP in action, modelling. We might not be able to be geniuses like Einstien, but we can have a better idea what he perceived to be important aspects of how he did what he did.
Don't know if that helps at all. But it seems sensible. Some comment on the example I gave above would be useful, too. FT2 13:42, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I can't speak for Rex, but I think you have gone a few planets off target FT2. You speak of good books, and you have NLP books in mind. When I think of good books I think of how to retain and maintain normality in a crazy world. Psychotherapy is designed to do such a thing. It doesn't always succeed but it does a lot better than NLP. I am not talking about Freudian analysis, but about the empirically measured and objectively assessed methods that really do help according to reality (in contrast with speculative hype). Those methods of science that I speak of are self correcting, and even so common sense that they seem obvious. But in that way they help to keep people on the straight and narrow more or less. Whereas NLP promises genius, amazing abilities, and getting over your problems in a blink of an eye. It is purely a mass marketed psychobabble market. The world view is that it is just psychocrap. You can dress any salesman in a suit and sell the stuff with no satisfaction. But there are some things that are verifiable. They are tested and found to be valid. Perceptions of normal people are elicited, and their perceptions are generally ...Yes that seems about right. Whereas NLP is psychobabble from start to finish with nothing more than a bunch of lame promises and insecurity building presuppositions that is guaranteed to set up and complete insecure people's disappointment. Any relatively healthy person will just shrug off NLP like a 24 hr virus. At least, that is the Eurasian perspective according to my studies :) Spend you Euros and have a glass of wine:) Regards HeadleyDown 14:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

References

I'm going to keep cleaning up the references and add links and notes where appropriate. I want to get he article to the stage where anyone can come in and easily check the sources. I'm going to stay out of any content disputes for a while until it cools down :) --Comaze 14:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Comaze. If cleaning means removing core references that you alone deem disposable, then forget it. If I see you altering the references, I will simply revert, and I will expect any neutral editor to do the same when considering your past and recent history. HeadleyDown 14:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Opening NLP Obscurantisms

Hello FT2. Further to your requests to discuss. I understand your urge to promote using obscurantisms on the opening of the article, but as discussed 3 weeks ago during mediation, hype and confusion is not appropriate for an encyclpopedia. A clear and instructive opening is requred that tells the reader straight away about their own perceptions (ie, not a programming language, but a way to program the mind). Not a study (sitting in libraries reading books or doing degrees, or publishing peer reviewed papers), but a self help technique. The study of subjective experience has already been criticised by scientists as hype and exageration. Presently the subject is classified as pseudoscientific by more scientists and scientific bodies than you realise. It is fine to explain straight away what NLP is in reality according to the sum of human knowledge on NLP. It is unacceptable to promote the subject using terms that are deliberately obscure and arguable. NLP is a method for programming the mind. Many NLP promoters use that explanation and it is helpful. That has been mediated already. Please learn to cooperate. I understand you have not been around here long. I will remain tolerant to your uncooperative actions. Regards HeadleyDown 17:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Now lets have some respect and cooperation with VoiceOfAll. In the interest of cooperation, lets work through the issues that have not been tackled and stop going over issues that have already been deemed acceptable by the mediator and the majority. Best regards HeadleyDown 17:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"deemed acceptable by the mediator" is overstating a mediator's role. A mediator only works to resolve the differences between editors. If editors still dispute something that a mediator deems acceptable, then it is not yet resolved and the mediator will need to mediate the dispute between editors, not the article. FuelWagon 05:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Headley... you are mistaken. Put simply.
  • It is not "hype" to describe a subject in its own words. Its about as neutral as it gets in fact.
  • It is certainly more neutral than the present wording. For example, sales, or communication clarity, or gaining an insight into how others think (or claiming to) may be many things, but they are certainly not "self help". So the present description is highly inaccurate - not surprisingly since the description I have added is the one cited on NLP websites, every source reference book, identically dewscribed by each of the founders, and cited by a large number of papers, whereas the one you revert to is a third party opinion or description, based upon one type of use of it.
  • If scientists consider the name, or description, "hype", thats a separate point. On Wikipedia, one describes what the field considers itself as (as User:FuelWagon said) and then critique it if needed. That's Wikipedia NPOV policy even for your own preferred examples and pseudoscience.
  • A study of... does not mean sitting in a library to most people. That is "studying" not "a study".
  • The term "programming", is described as I have detailed. You're thinking of another use for the term, and that might be how a variety of scientists see it even - but that unfortunately is not the meaning used in the NLP field.
  • I note, and reject, the straw man in your words: "I understand your urge to promote using obscurantisms". This is neutrality, and policy. But you know thats a line we differ on. Which is why I feel this matter will end up in ArbCom's lap, either now, or at some time.
  • I note your appreciation that I "have not been around here long", but it's unwarranted. I've been an editor on this article since July 2004, whereas you've been POV warring here for 3 months. I've been active on Wikipedia for almost 18 months and have worked in-depth on a very wide range of articles, with a good reputation; you have been active since August 2005 and (from what I can tell from your contributions list) your sole contribution, if one can call it that, has been to slant this article.
One more fact stated without checking... and one more condescending comment, Headley. Inappropriate. But telling.


FT2 19:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Sorry FT2. You have not covered the issue that your addition is unclear and gives readers a hard time with the opening. Now instead of insisting on such uncooperative sidetracking, you could get on with the issues presented below. HeadleyDown 20:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's what NLP describes itself as, and therefore in principle that's what needs describing. If the description is accurate but you, personally, feel it is going to be hard for readers to understand, then you need to figure a way to make the accurate description readable, rather than take the easy way out by substituting an inaccurate one. It seems reasonable to me, comparing other specialized subject introductions.
Whatever else, the giveaway that the above is a rationalization, and basically you have a determination and desire to slant the article, is that your responses were not "thats too complicated". They were "thats promotion". It is not a cause for personal attacks, that someone else expects accuracy in the text.
FT2 22:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


FT2. The lines you proposed for the opening were unclear and did not satisfy the requirements of the mediated version, plus the study of structure etc really is a promotional obscurantism. I merely wish to state we have some things to sort out here. Please focus on completing these following tasks. Regards HeadleyDown 01:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. This is funny. I was taught that I should not use the "study of structure of..." to explain to businesslike people what I was doing. My trainer said that if you tell them that, they just go "Huh?". HansAntel 03:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Note: to Headley et al, just because I am mediating here does not mean that I have the final say. I am just trying to make comprimises and keep everyone here together.Voice of All T|@|Esperanza 03:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've been looking in on this article for a while and I think your presence here is appreciated by all neutral editors, VoiceOfAll. There are some editors here who would like to see the back of you though, and its clearly because they do not like to compromise. People calling for arbitration at such an early stage are seriously biased and seem to be destined for arbitration to tell them clearly that they are biased. I believe they should start questioning their own POV. Considering the amount of changes they insist upon making after compromises have already been made towards them, I suggest the NLP/arbitration promoters use their imaginations to consider how biased and fanatical they seem to relatively NLP savvy outsiders such as myself. JC

I think theres a slight chance you might be talking about me. The trouble here is not NLP or non-NLP. Personally, Ive got knowledge of it, but on Wikipedia I don't have any axe except NPOV. And I know wikipedia policies, and when they are being badly abused, and I've said so several times. Headley & Co haven't really stopped ignoring Wiki policies, and that is the issue, not the article, to me. I don't see any sign he's likely to change that either. Its a clear obvious case of aggressive POV warring, based on his behavior. It's been going on a relatively long time now. The arbitrator knows he has had respectful communications from me on more than one occasion now to discuss the matter, as has HeadleyDown himself. He knows I respect the work he is doing, because I have spoken respectfully, asked his opinion, tried at first to respect his work, and the like. I just think its a fruitless task, because fundamentally Headley & Co don't act as if they want to accept that Wikipedia isnt a debating board, but an encyclopedia, and has policies that function specifically to stop this kind of thing. So no, this isn't an "early stage" at all. As for changes... if an article is factually incorrect, and the reason it's factually incorrect is POV warring rather than reasonable dispute... no. Then correcting the article is what editors are intended to do. Collaboratively if possible, or using other policies provided. How I seem to you, is something we can discuss if you like. If you read my posts here, you'll see an awful lot of courteous and fair discussion and requests to discuss being ignored or dismissed or sidestepped. FT2 05:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Hello FT2. I notice you have continued to add the obscurantist/promotional section to the opening yet again. In doing so, you are turning compromise into uncompromise. Careful and considered compromise was made on that section through mediation. Turning compromise into uncompromise is completely against mediation. Try to work on resolving the outstanding issues. HeadleyDown 06:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Completing issues

Intro

We seem to have two different version, I merged them as best I could. If anything else should be added, then lets talk.Voice of All T|@|Esperanza 06:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]

I am sorry, VofA. I don't think the introduction is accurate in the encyclopaedic (or indeed other) senses:
  • The first sentence Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a commercially promoted method for programming the mind...
    • "Hypnotherapy is a commercially promoted method for programming the mind? Psychotherapy is commercially marketed for programming the mind? School is a commercially promoted method of programming the mind? Like... that's the sole explanation?? Doesn't this sound wrong? Shouldnt an introduction describe it as it sees itself?
    • Further, it is not accurate. As described, its not a "method for programming the mind". The version I added was far more precise.
    • In any event, "programming" has extremely strong POV associations with cult style programming, which this use of the word clearly is very different from.
  • It reinstates the term "NLP language" which is a non existant nonsense term.
  • Last, I find it curious that the paragraph evaluating its standing states that it is "unsupported", "pseudoscience" and "a dubious therapy", every negative going, but the extremely relevant Sharpley citation, despite having a page ref etc, is considered unsuitable although it clarifies and balances the above.
We haven't even begun to cover the mis-characterization as "pseudoscience" and lacking credibility, yet.
Out of respect for VoA, if someone can explain these rationally, neutrally, without POV warring and policy violations, please do so. (Note that excuses like "the real expalanation is too complicated so an incorrect POV one is better" are not okay). That's the reason I'm leaving this clearly unbalanced material at this time. And VofA, you have my email from a previous post, if you would like to discuss, please do contact me that way too. FT2 06:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nicely done VoiceOfAll. Hopefully now we can just get on with resolution. Regards HeadleyDown 06:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Hello FT2 and VoiceOfAll. I will do my best to clarify.

Programming: NLP is a kind of programming. That is clear by the title. People want to know what kind of programming it is. It is a way to program the mind. There are many NLP sources that state this as a matter of fact and it is indeed an accurate description. NLP also uses the computer metaphor throughout. eg; Hypnotherapy. A kind of therapy using hypnosis. Psychotherapy. A kind of therapy using psychology. HeadleyDown 07:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mental-health-matters.com "Programming refers, not to the activity of programming, but to the study of the thinking and behavioural patterns or 'programmes' which people use in their daily lives. The name is a bit of a mouthful and is certainly not NLP's strongest asset. By trying to be too comprehensive it has ended up being somewhat off-putting and most people feel a little uncomfortable about the 'programming' part of the name when they first encounter NLP." Bandler, Grinder, Dilts, Seymour and O'Connor all state the same. I think that a vague "it programs the mind" is not appropriate. It's misleading because "programming" has POV asociations, and misleading again because each source clarifies that is not what "programming" refers to. FT2 07:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Programming is neutral enough. Looks to be very clear and the opening works fine that way. HeadleyDown 07:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Any reference to results of NLP in testing should be very concisely summarised. There are a great many other statements that are far more relevant to Sharpley's kind words about the use of many pseudosciences in psychotherapy. Another paper concluding that NLP was ineffective actually stated that dianetics is also ineffective, but is still used in fringe practices. Regards HeadleyDown 07:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Which means little. The intro has one point of view. The other point or something similar is appropriate to balance that. Your problem with stating that at least one researcher concludes that lab tests may not reflect real life tests is.....?
Note that as I said, I'll come back to that characterization later. this one's purely about deletion of a balancing verifiable credible sourced view from the intro that leaves the only views in that paragraph as "against". FT2 07:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No FT2, the paragraph is a neutral scientific statement of fact. I do have a solution though. It does not concern the opening, but I do have a source that states that many pseudosciences are promoted in psychotherapy, especially concerning fringe practices. Its a fair and factual statement. I will see how it fits. Cheers HeadleyDown 07:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I modified the intro yet again...:-).Voice of All T|@|Esperanza 07:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I can accept that, VoiceOfAll, though it is not as immediately clarifying as the previous. I do suggest a couple of word changes. Notice that "the study of structure of subjective etc" is considered an outrageous claim by more than a few scientists, and rather than belief about structure, it is more of an assumption. I will make the changes, see how it looks to you. Regards HeadleyDown 07:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I made more changes, and programming is still mentioned, it seems quite clear for now.Voice of All T|@|Esperanza 07:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fine. I made some small adjustments also. Cheers HeadleyDown 08:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think the intro is acceptable.JPLogan 09:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Yes Headley, I see that the Mediator's view is not quite to be left alone as you have previously said. You just can't resist those little POV pushing touches, can you...
  • VofA "It is promoted by NLP proponents as "the study of the structure of subjective experience" "
HD edit It is promoted by NLP proponents as "the structure of magic" and claimed to be "the study of the structure of subjective experience"
  • VofA "NLP also provides techniques for programming the mind, so that such models can be used by others to emulate effective skills"
HD edit: NLP also provides techniques for programming one's own behavior or other people's behavior.
  • VofA "It is formally defined"
HD It is promoted
  • VofA "is predicated upon the belief"
FT2. I am willing to compromise here. I made some corrections to the opening, and I corrected myself also. I stated promoted as ..study of structure etc, but it was rather a claim than a promotion, so I placed NLP's most common promotion (structure of magic...the word magic is in the title of many books). HeadleyDown 12:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You forgot I placed the McDermott reference (not shown above) HeadleyDown 12:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I am willing to compromise on these points. I see no problem here as I am more interested in completing this part and moving to the next. HeadleyDown 12:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we could hear VoiceOfAll's version. HeadleyDown 12:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
We did. You instantly edited it, and the above lists your impact on it. A bit inappropriate to then talk about "hearing VofA's version"....? FT2 12:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • VofA "Qualified NLP practitioners claim to be able to do more complex NLP change work"
HD Qualified NLP practitioners claim to be able to do more complex NLP change work (Eisner 2000). Although NLP is pseudoscientific [STRAW MAN AND PRESUPPOSITION ALERT!], it is fair to say that many pseudoscientific subjects are promoted in psychotherapy, especially the fringe psychotheraputic practices
FT2. OK, I am being fair and compromising here. I can change it to Although NLP is classed by some experts as pseudoscientific....HeadleyDown 12:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • VofA "in the eyes of many people"
HD in the eyes of previous supporters
FT2. Voice of all asked for the removal of "many" and I was cooperating. Si see no problem with my version and if you look up the reference, you will find it is correct. HeadleyDown 12:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I can see the benefit of removing weasel words. But "previous supporters" also implies all or most previous supporters, which is incorrect as opposed to merely unsecified. Can you find a citation to describe who exactly lost faith in it, or something? FT2 12:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • HD Richard Bandler attempted legal action to claim the intellectual and commercial property of NLP although and as NLP did not work [and this relates to court how exactly?]
FT2. Again, that is actually a direct reference to the book by Salerno. HeadleyDown 12:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is, its nothing to do with the court case. if it is relevant to the article, find a place that it fits the article context. FT2 12:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • VofA "other reported states and abilities"
HD other dubious activities
My version fits well HeadleyDown 12:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Edited to retain both, see if that works FT2 12:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • VofA "medical use"
HD "alternative" medicine
It's classed as alternative medicine sometimes. Certainly I don't see it being taught to doctors as part of their training. HeadleyDown 12:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It also gets medical use. Both is okay, deletion of that fact in favor of alternative, isn't. FT2 12:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • VofA " 'New age' or 'commercialized' NLP is increasingly targeted for saleability"
HD NLP is increasingly targeted for saleability
Reverted. Don't even think of POV warring this way. FT2 11:39, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Please, FT2, it does seem like you are telling me what to do. I have been cooperative. If you want to make changes do not simply revert. HeadleyDown 12:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
FT2, these are all valid changes. I made those changes for the sake of the remaining issues to clear up. Please be more specific about your objections, because I see nothing wrong with them. HeadleyDown 12:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
See way above, you asked if I was telling you what to do. When it comes to content in general, no, all sides must be represented. When it comes to comprehension and clear persistent and aggressive boundary pushing on core wikipedia policies such as NPOV, yes. Specific criticisms are given above in each case, read 'em, or ask for a re-post of them, either is okay. FT2 12:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


I have re-reverted the deletion of the Sharpley quote. I find it interesting that it's okay to include Sharpley's criticism, but not the other half of his research conclusion, and that it's okay to include 3 sources heavily critical without one research that isn't. I also find it interesting that you ask for explanation, and I tell you where it is and offer to repost it if you can't find it, but then you still don't actually discuss, but instead revert to the one-sided version again without discussion. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It tries to be collaborative, but not at the cost of excessively non-neutral articles.
Some thoughts from WP:NPOV about the nature of NPOV:
  • "the core of the NPOV policy is to let competing approaches of the same topic exist on the same page"
  • "not making articles state, imply, or insinuate that only one side is correct"
  • "We accept, for the purposes of working on Wikipedia, that 'human knowledge' includes all different significant theories on all different topics"
  • "we can agree to present each of the significant views fairly"
  • "a wide variety of conflicting theories constitute what we call 'knowledge'."
  • "Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness)"
  • "It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views"
  • " It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all-comers; it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides." [emphasis aded]
On biased editing:
  • "an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization — for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse"
  • "There is a minority of Wikipedians who feel so strongly about this problem that they believe Wikipedia should adopt a "scientific point of view" rather than a "neutral point of view."
  • "a large number of people can honestly fail to see the bias inherent in a popular term, simply because it's the one commonly used."
  • I don't want to write for the enemy. Most of them rely on stating as fact many things which are demonstrably false. Are you saying that, to be neutral in writing an article, I must lie, in order to represent the view I disagree with? --> "This is a misunderstanding of what the neutrality policy says... It's worth observing that scholars are trained so that, even when trying to prove a point, counter-arguments are included...This can be a particularly touchy subject"
  • "The term Weaselspeak refers to expressions such as "is claimed", "is thought to be", and "is alleged". While these may be legitimate rhetorical devices, they should be carefully scrutinized to ensure that they are not used to insert hidden bias" Wikipedia:Guidelines_for_controversial_articles
  • "Often an author presents one POV because it's the only one that he or she knows well. The remedy is to add to the article—not to subtract from it." Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial
And last:
One further point should be borne in mind. Our best contributors should not have to waste huge amounts of their time handholding people who are clueless, ignorant, or have an ideological ax to grind; if some of the latter people constantly post nearly worthless stuff, and do not react to polite and reasonable criticism, they and their writing shouldn't expect to be treated nicely. MediaWiki: Understanding Bias (linked from WP:NPOV FT2 13:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello FT2. You have just committed a serious offense in your personal attack. But in response, I am going to point out in as polite a way possible your biases.

Your approach to NLP has been one of posting your own POV on the page (your own perceptions of what you think are inconsistencies), and your own claims that you think NLP is really powerful (yes you said that despite the strong evidence of NLP's ineffectiveness), and you have placed a section of speculation from a paper (1987) on the opening in order to negate a recent finding (post 2000). I suggest you are biased:) I will look for remedies for this, but considering I have made multiple compromises today and I cannot see any from you so far, I am going to continue to compromise by reverting to the position of compromise agreed under mediation. HeadleyDown 13:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But you feel that the paper is significant enough to support the post 2000 research. If Heap's work is worth citing, it's worth citing in a balanced manner. Your "compromise" has still not brought neutrality to the article, though it's closer (although in the main, not through your efforts). Both sides need representing. If the article was too NLP-pro and didn't characterize criticisms fairly, I'd add them myself too. But I'd do it by describing both fairly, not by misrepresenting or under-representing one. FT2 15:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I have just counted, for example, how many separate times the article mentions that Eisner called NLP pseudoscience or similar. Its about 6 repetitions so far - including the one you just added. My question is, is Heap still considered a quality comentator on NLP? If he is, then both quotes are valid. If not, then neither are reliable or both should have their flaws described by whoever critiqued him. FT2 15:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi FT2. No, I have been here long enough to have read extremely deeply into all of the papers and books and I have most of the papers right here on my desk, so I know if people are misrepresenting the facts (eg by snipping bits out of paragraphs without quoting the negative finding at the end:). The latter references quote Sharpley correctly because, like myself, they actually do research professionally. Their representation of Sharpley is that NLP is unsupported. They quote other review papers that say NLP is pseudoscientific in theory, pseudoscientific in association of principles, and of course ineffective in experiment and practice. All the latter scientists who do overall reviews say the same. They also state many other reasons why NLP is pseudoscience. Now most people know that there are pseudosciences used within psychotherapy, but they don't like it. People blame NLP, and they blame the way it is promoted by the main developers. To state that NLP is unsupported and therefore has been classed as pseudoscientific is really very neutral. Regards HeadleyDown 15:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello FT2. The section of Sharpley's article you present below is unrepresentative of Sharpley. Not only have you misrepresented his overall tone, but you have taken a small section of an argument that he presents in the paper to support your desire to promote NLP. Now, as you very well know, Sharpley concluded at the end of the paragraph you have partially represented, that NLP had been relegated.

At the end of the paper, Sharpley says that the research does not in any way support the ridiculous claims of NLP.

He put it in negative terms. Not only that but the statement that you present is higly inconclusive and totally unfit for an encyclopedia. He uses words like, may, perhaps, etc. He makes a statement about psychoanalysis being hard to test. But as you know, he believes the tenets of NLP to be perfectly testable. If you wish to take a word out of a critical paper such as "good" and state that Smith thinks NLP is good, when in fact Smith said that NLP is good for nothing, then you have misrepresented that article. JPLogan 01:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You have the papers? That helps. So please check.... did Sharpley say, or did he not say, ""There are conclusive data from the research on NLP, and the conclusion is that the principles and procedures suggested by NLP have failed to be supported by those data. Perhaps NLP principles are not amenable to research evaluation. This does not necessarily reduce NLP to worthlessness for counseling practice. Rather, it puts NLP in the same category as psychoanalysis, that is, with principles not easily demonstrated in laboratory settings but, nevertheless, strongly supported by clinicians in the field."". Is that, or is that not, a made-up quote? Never mind what you think he means. Are those, or are those not, words he says? FT2 18:27, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mmm. FT2, I just looked up what my academic writer's manual says about your type of attribution. They call it "intellectual fraud". Oh dear! HeadleyDown 02:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry about Headley, FT2. I actually like you; I think fanatics are hillarious. DaveRight 02:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


The current version as of now looks quite good[32]. Still the word "calibration" was useful, as it suggest that your mind can be recalibrated, which lead into "programming". The connection between NLP and progamming in the intro is a bit weak though.Voice of All T|@|Esperanza 18:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again VoiceOfAll. I added your suggestions to the intro (calibration and programing). Tell us what you think. Regards HeadleyDown 02:52, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks VoiceOfAll. I will see what I can do about the programing relationship. Regards HeadleyDown 00:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting improvements to the opening, just had a quick look. My main queries are
  1. Calibration is described/used incorrectly (you don't recalibrate your mind, calibration is part of understanding non-verbal communication from someone).
  2. I'm interested in clearly showing NLP vs applications, and they still merge a bit (though if the rest of the article is clear then that's fine)
  3. There's still this thing from British Psych Society classifying NLP as quintessential charlantary - surely the BPS sources we've shown demonstrate this to be bogus. I gave multiple references of the BPS working with NLP [33] [34], and FT2's link at BPS is also great [35].
Such blatant misrepresentation is common from a couple of editors, who when given multiple pieces of contrary evidence don't withdraw the claim, but simply look for some other source to make their point. Of course ignoring evidence and just rewording a claim, finding anecdotal quotes to support what is said should not come from us editors. This is where my understanding of wikipedia's NPOV and science preference differs from those editors. Anyway, I'll keep reading, my quick look has whet my appetite to catch up (tomorrow!). GregA 10:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Representing the article properly in the opening

Hello. I noticed that the opening really did not represent the article as a whole. So I added another paragraph in order to represent the article properly. I think more critique can be added. We have 3 large paragraphs giving NLP its say, but had only one little concise one saying what the scientists say. I added one for the critics. Regards HeadleyDown 14:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yup! I agree. The opening is totally skewed towards promotion of NLP, and not much has been stated about the criticisms. It could be a lot clearer there. Now I have noticed on many other articles that the opening is stated properly (there is a statement about what the article presents, and then there is a qualifier from critics etc. The NLP article opening needs rebalancing to include a lot more criticism in order to make it represent the article properly. DaveRight 01:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Basic Tenets

Hello. Yes they are used all the time and are in the new books and editions on NLP. They are also used as the tests have tested them in the research. Here is evidence:

a. NLP coach uses the eye diagram lead/preferred/primaryRS, and says that people can be primarily one or the other also. The NLP Coach: A Comprehensive Guide to Personal Well-being and Professional Success Ian McDermott, Wendy Jago

b. Molden. Managing with the Power of NLP / eye diagram lead/preferred/primaryRS, and has a lot of information on preferred 1996

c. Dilts Bandler Metastates in A User Manual for the Brain Vol 2 2000 page 270 Diagram placing PRS as core to NLP. This puts prs and rs at the core of NLP in the recent model.

I was taught the primary representation system recently and it is still used in modeling according to my trainers (Grinder trainers). Sincerely. HansAntel 02:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

PRS seems fine to me right now(I made a few edits).Voice of All T|@|Esperanza 03:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rep systems are certainly taught in both the old and new books and trainings on NLP. I've had no time for a bit (and still have little), but we have to make clear the difference between Rep Systems, Primary Rep Systems, and Preferred Rep Systems - at the moment all 3 seem to be being used synonymously. By separating that we can also show changes to how Preferred RS is taught. I'll have a look at the main article perhaps you've already sorted that out? Oh, HansAntel - what does Molden say about preferred rep systems? GregA 10:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Recent Developments

Could use more clarity, some POV remains, to much use of "many".

This one looks to me to be resolved after Headley's editing. What do you think VoiceOfAll? Regards JPLogan 09:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


NLP Applications

Had some POV, could use minor style rewordings.Voice of All T|@|Esperanza 03:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC) [reply]

Edits Nov 7

  • We don't need to name all five senses in the intro - space waste, and people will know what "the senses" are.
  • "Tenet" means "An opinion, doctrine, or principle held as being true" (dictionary.com). I would have thought that "experience is subjective" and similar were far more fundamental than the left-right hemisphere theory if we're discussing "basic" tenets. The tenet behind the left/right brain and eye movements, is essentially, that body language can be observed. if someone else can sharpen this section, please do so, it still needs cleanup.
  • NLP is widely used and credible by reputable bodies, as previously stated (and removed incorrectly). That is factual. So I've added it back.
  • The BPS (whatever Parker may have reported) do not lend support to the statement "NLP is charlatanery". That is factual, so I have added it.
  • Reorganize Engrams to explain first, note that dianetics use differs second, and continue with NLP use third. Previous order was less helpful. No information deleted, engram paragraph made more encyclopaedic in style.
  • NLP derived models are widely used - factual. Noted in "modeling" section.
  • Eye accessing is a simple model, they get far more complex.
  • It is considered to be a powerful persuasion tool, the citations (like most other sections) omit this. Noted.
  • Removed "As NLP claims tend to include exaggeration, and have been proven to be ineffective in experiments, it is seen as unethical to use NLP for financial gain", please provide citation. Who considers this, and what is their basis of credibility? It sounds like editors own feeling.
  • Add back 2 valid looking links previously deleted.

If there is doubt please discuss here, rather than fully and indiscriminately reverting, since the above are believed factual, credibly supported, and relevant to balance the present viewpoint. FT2 13:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Modeling

I've tried to pull this into Wikipedia standard form, without loss or slanting of information.

There is already an article at Modeling (NLP), I have first, merged all the information in this section into that article, so that it is there for other readers. Secondly, I have then updated the main NLP article to give an overview based upon that article's introduction and criticisms section, which explains modeling, overviews it, and reports criticisms of it. Third, I have linked to the full article as backup.

The "wide uses" referred to include for example - models of anger, used in health services for anger management, sports modeling, advocacy modeling used by lawyers, interview modeling used by law enforcement, spelling and teaching models used in education, and so on.

The test of the success of this is, would someone reading it, feel they know what NLP modeling is (in overview), and its criticisms (again in overview). They can then check the related article for detail.

FT2 20:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi FT2. Presently the NLP modelling page is full of hype and exagerated claims. I wonder why you didn't notice:) That will change soon enough. Regards HeadleyDown 00:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

american cancer society

the american cancer society has some info about NLP.

there have been no large-scale randomized clinical trials of the method. One small-scale study found that NLP might be effective in treating phobias. However, a National Research Council committee did not find the theories or practices of NLP to be well founded. Indeed, some studies have found that eye movement is not a consistent marker of type of mental processing. This appears to contradict the observations of the NLP founders.

Several reviews of the literature have reported there is little or no evidence to support the effectiveness of NLP. A survey of 139 psychologists listed in the National Register of Health Service Providers in Psychology found that the soundness of NLP was questionable. More scientific research is needed to determine if NLP may help any medical or psychological condition.

FuelWagon 17:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they are asking practitioners to start putting NLP through clinical tests themselves. Certainly psychology scientists are not going to do it considering the pseudoscientific theories and poor pre-clinical results. Refs can be provided. Regards HeadleyDown 00:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

the Neuro Linguistic Psychotherapy and Counselling Association

It claims it is 'The only professional organisation for psychotherapists and counsellors using Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP).

The link is here. FuelWagon 17:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NLPtCA is a Member Organisation of the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy (UKCP). This umbrella organisation seeks to agree national standards across the whole range of approaches to psychotherapy and counselling.

NLPtCA is the UK's only recognized professional body for NLP therapeutic use, under (but independent from) the ANLP, the UK's national NLP body. The UKCP is the accredited top-level UK body for therapies such as psychotherapy, CBT and hypnotherapy. FT2 20:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this puts NLP within psychotherapy in perspective to some extent. Remember that CBT etc are hugely represented within psychotherapy compared to NLP. The NLPtca is about the only organization that has any standards at all. The UKCP really wants to keep them under scrutiny (I mean make sure they behave themselves). Anyway, just remember how little weight this assoc carries:) Not trying to diss the assoc here, just read the literature and you will see that NLP is mostly the wild west. Regards HeadleyDown 00:52, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I've finally got a day off :)
What do you mean that the NLPtCA is the only organisation with any standards? - they are certainly one of the few groups promoting official therapeutic standards. Don't you recognise all of ecology a "standard"?.
And what do you mean they carry little weight? This is a group that psychotherapists accept. Of course they are only an application of NLP - they endorse ANLP trainings, plus the requirements for applying NLP into therapeutic fields, they're pretty clearly focussed on the therapeutic application of NLP, and recognised. Sorry Headley just not getting your claim GregA 10:17, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Its just a simple question of weight, Greg. Placing a huge paragraph in the opening section that seems to imply that NLP is an entirely respectable set of psychotherapists is quite ridiculous. Also, associating the group with other unconnected associations is also akin to a lie. HeadleyDown 12:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Headley, that wasn't what you said though. This discussion section hadn't mentioned the opening section so I'm not sure why you bring that up (maybe yesterday it was in the opening?). Now, in fact, NLPtCA is not mentioned AT ALL in the article, not even in the psychotherapy section - which it is an ideal reference for. You may also notice that the NLPtCA does not accept just any NLP practitioner, they must conform to ANLP guidelines and the guidlines for UK psychotherapists (2 separate requirements for separate fields)- and it is fine to reflect that generic NLP training teaches NLP, and doesn't claim to teach psychotherapy, or coaching etc (though some trainings teach to those standards and may even teach with specific applications in mind, I guess) GregA 12:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Greg. Sure, that was the problem. Promoters keep putting junk in the opening that wasn't even represented in the main body. Its a pretty sure sign that people are fanatical. Just a pointer on bias! HeadleyDown 13:23, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

scientists

The word "scientists" is a bit... odd to describe the critics of NLP. Do these people have specific job titles? FuelWagon 15:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

FuelWagon, Maybe they can be called quantitative (statistical) researchers? See "The Qualitative Report, Volume 1, Number 4, Fall, 1992" for an opposing view that supports Grinder & Bandler's qualitative approach. --Comaze 00:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello FuelWagon. Going for another reframe?:) OK, let me explain. Bandler and Grinder are pulling another fast one. They are making the author believe that they are conducting real qualitative research (As if!). What the author doesn't realise is that qualitative also has to be rigorous. It also has to be peer reviewed by independent peers who do not have vested interests and are not likely to say "Yes! You can learn to walk on water using NLP":) Or "Yes. Using NLP a guruworshiping idiot who likes to read cretinous self help pseudoscience can be Eistein if they wiggle their eyes about in just the right direction". Bandler and Grinder have not done science within NLP. Promoters do continue to call them scientists. Fanatics call Bandler "Dr Bandler" and he does not own a medical certificate or PhD. NLP has certainly not earned the title "science". But it has earned the title "pseudoscience". Note that there are research studies in all kinds of subjects that are qualitative, interpretive etc and are not pseudoscience. From what I have read about the researchers of NLP who call it pseudoscience, they have all conducted qualitative studies, and have conducted lab studies, clinical studies, and field studies in an empirical way. Bandler and Grinder have conducted coke sniffing parties at Esalen in order to further their financial interests in NLP:) Their well deserved charlatan/pseudoscientist/shaman label is well deserved. Cheers DaveRight 01:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In case there was some confusion, and there seems to be some confustion here, I was talking about this sentence: "scientists such as Eisner, (2000); Lilienfeld et al (2003), Helisch (2004); Williams et al (2000), Drenth (2003)". What is Eisner's credentials for criticizing NLP? Is he a therapist? a psychologist? What? "Scientist" is simply too vague to say he qualifies as someone who gets to criticize NLP. FuelWagon 05:31, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hi FuelWagon. From what I have read they are all slightly different types of scientist. I suppose you could write "a clinical psychotherapist with degrees in psychology and a doctorate in psychology, a psychologist and researcher of psychology as used in psychotherapy and editor of the Scientific Review of Pseudoscience in Psychotherapy (a large body of therapists and psychologists who have classed NLP as pseudoscience), and a practicing psychotherapist and professor of psychology, and another large body of psychologist doctorates who class NLP as pseudoscience, and a psycholinguist with a phd in psychology. But I think that would be a bit long. They are all scientists so I would class them as such. I reckon all 100+ or so of them would be a representative sample by any statistical measure, and they all say NLP is pseudoscience. Best regard Bookmain 06:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it is amazing how many scientist do actually class NLP as pseudoscience. Last time I counted there were a whole lot of researchers/scientists/psych practitioners who categorize NLP as pseudoscience. Judging by the amount of obscurantist writing, exaggeration, refusal to accept science (because it indicates NLP is fraudulent) and the complete lack of research advancement going on to back up wild claims (because it will further prove NLP is fraudulent), I think it is simply going to get more pseudo. I would still recommend the cult/religion idea for NLP. Church of NLP. It works for Hubbard and Tom! Regards DaveRight 09:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I guess that's a little clarifying and I agree too much a mouthful to write the way you've written it Bookmain. However, saying "scientists say" would imply that all scientists say this, and that is misleading. Then again, it'd be just as misleading to say "psychologists view NLP as a pseudoscience" - though you've got a few good sources that some do. GregA 10:19, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rapport (interpersonal rapport)

Ok, I've added a reference about teaching rapport (NLP) skills, which is currently not represented in this document. This is probably the most well-known NLP model. I want to add it to the goals section. This article (Clabby 2004) is published in two medical teaching journals [36] and [37]. There are also hundreds of book references on the subject of rapport that cite Bandler & Grinder. --Comaze 23:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead Comaze. I have some wicked research on that one also. But keep it concise. The scientific conclusion is pretty abrupt and aptly put:) DaveRight 02:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rapport is the first skill taught in NLP practitioner training and is essential in any change work. What are the other views on rapport (NLP)? --Comaze 12:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Energy

In this edit [38] . After checking the sources for Bandler and Grinder, they do not refer to 'psychic energy' only 'energy' -- as in collateral energy (Bateson 1972) -- it is powered by metabolism. I added the page numbers so you can check this yourself. This is a necessary distinction to resolve some ambiguity. --Comaze 13:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Again, Proper Representation in the Opening

Hello all. I think its fair to say that people are getting a little crazy with organization and weight here.

Firstly, NLP is a pseudoscience and science gets priority and greater weight.

Secondly, the most sensible and intuitive flow is 1State what NLP claims(the map), and 2 State what science and critics say about NLP (the reality) (because science is overwhelmingly critical of NLP).

So please realise how accommodating neutral editors are being here, when NLP gets a huge say in the opening, then there is some (smaller) criticism. It is completely fanatical of people to paste strategically snipped and intellectually fraudulent stuff afterwards (one small part of Sharpley's argument that concluded that NLP had been ditched. The scientific conclusion is negative. Full stop! HeadleyDown 13:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Headley, as I've said before, you are clearly lacking understanding of your proposed subject, unaware of the balance of opinion both scientific and otherwise, and your sources are often cited in a selective and partisan manner that results in the exclusion of critical caveats they themselves deliberately wrote in.
Neutrality matters above any individual point of view. Your edits and comments are often somewhat one-sided, whereas mine are fairly universally sourced from an appropriate source (or a relevant note or invitation to discuss posted on the talk page if in doubt). That's the difference. FT2 14:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Hello FT2. I have compromised with you on far too much already. It is far more reasonable to represent the criticism more fully within the opening. I am fairly representing the opening by being brief. Your so called critical caveat is one part of a single study that reads as a positive conclusion. As you know, the passage you have presented states that NLP maybe could possibly be thought of as being like psychoanalysis. Then it says that if there is anything that could be tested and it fails, then it relegates the field. So NLP has been relegated (it is worse than psychoanalysis). The other conclusion is that NLP claims are scientifically unsupported.

In addition to that. NLP is criticised by a great many other researchers after this 1987 paper. The are within various fields such as business studies, training, psychotherapy, psychology, and so on, and they all say that Sharpley says that NLP is ineffective, unsupported etc. That is their view, not mine. I will represent the views of scientists and critics exactly how they are represented in the literature. You are a complete fanatic who will look for any reason to promote NLP back into the outlandishly exaggerated nonsense that it is.

Also, pseudoscience is used widely. This is a criticism of pseudoscience. People criticise NLP for being part of this problem. NLP is promoted in some business sectors, and of course people fall for the hype. Business writers also state how pseudoscientific NLP is. That will be represented. Pseudosciences are used in therapy. That is criticised. That will be represented.

So, FT2. You are presenting a completely twisted view.

The literature that I have on these matters is very broad and deep. Now, either you start realising exactly how reasonable the non fanatical editors are, or science will indeed be represented with far more weight than the pseudoscince that you are promoting. HeadleyDown 15:17, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

PS.... OK, FT2. Now here is a solution. If you can find literature that states "Sharpley says NLP is lovely, just like psychoanalysis", then that passage is fine. However, so far, the only lit that I have quotes "Sharpley says NLP is ineffective, perfectly testable and pseudoscientific, and scientifically unsupported". Actually Sharpley is quoted for saying NLP is a cult, fad, ridiculously promoted, dubious, etc. HeadleyDown 15:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Your wording "Sharpley says NLP is lovely" is an exaggeration, which I have no need to meet. What I have said is, Sharpley presents a balanced view, and you are selectively representing him. It's not for you to choose that his "side #1" was what he "really" means and his side #2 is somehow not something he meant. The WP:NPOV point is, represent sources in a balanced fashion. I don't know what Sharpley thinks, personally. Nor do you. What we do jointly know is he saw fit to write both that it is scientifically unsupported at present, and also that it has strong clinical support and this doesn't mean its by any means worthless. Sharpley chose to write that, not you, not I. Both of those were in his article, it's important to present his balanced view.

Yes, FT2. I know Sharpley doesn't say its lovely. You have no way of getting a the overview of science that says NLP is lovely. It doesn't exist. You are not presenting a balanced view. He stated that if it is testable and fails, then it is relegated. Of course it was tested, and it failed. You deliberately missed that point out. YOU are deliberately misrepresenting Sharpley. Plus you have not referred to how other people see Sharpley's conclusion. You have once again taken your own POV and pulled your favourite bit out (and out of context) in order to promote NLP. You are behaving in a fanatical manner. Your edit will simply get reverted. HeadleyDown 16:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I also note that you have removed the note about BPS, although clearly BPS do not subscribe to Parker's view, and the note about NLP's wide use, although this is well known too (or would be if you had researched it as suggested). If you can find current evidence that BPS consider NLP "quackery" or support Parker's representation of their view, please cite it, because as best I can see - and I've cited sources which you have not rebutted - they don't.

FT2. Again, the note, was your view, but it is not the view of any cited source. Parker was clearly represented, and is valid. HeadleyDown 16:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to familiarize yourself with the suggested addition to WP:NPOV by User:NPOVenforcer, at Wikipedia:POV_selective_fact_suppression. He mentions 3 behaviors that count: selective citing, deletion of rationale for your views if weak, and deleting opposing ideas when credible.
  • Your citation of Sharpley is the first of those,
  • Your selection of only negative research (and only the most negative citations from it), such as ignoring comments such as Druckman's ("Studies of the effectiveness of NLP are limited in a number of ways [...] None of the studies testing aspects of NLP has used NLP-certified Trainers as counselors, therapists, or eye movement monitors") that would expose the weakness of your stance is the second,
  • Your deletion of the fact that BPS themselves don't support your representation of their view is the third.
This is why I am reverting your edit (again). It is slanted, and misrepresentative of your own chosen sources. FT2 16:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


FT2. Your citation of Sharpley is fraudulent. You have decided to present only the parts you like and cut the lower and more negative conclusion off of the quote.

The overview of every scientist who quoted Sharpley says that Sharpley found that NLP's effectiveness and claimed principles were scientifically unsupported. Sharpleys CONCLUSION was that:

"CERTAINLY research data do not support the rather extreme claims that the proponents of NLP have made as the the validity of its principles or the novelty of its procedures". (Sharpley 1987).

That CAN be represented because that is Sharpley's conclusion. HeadleyDown 16:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

But do you notice, I'm the one citing sources (BPS, sharpley) ... you're saying "that doesn't matter". I didn't "cut off" anything as you claim, rather I have *added* the information you are omitting. The issue is not what others quoted. Its what Sharpley himself said. He said 3 things. NLP is unsuppported by science, has extreme claims, but is strongly supported in the field in a manner similar to psychotherapy. We agree about the extreme claims by some NLP folks. BUT it does not excuse not representing the rest correctly. It also doesn't answer my other points - the BPS do *not* support the stated view and it is wrong to represent them as doing so, and NLP is widely used and considered as useful by a wide range of credible 3rd parties. Thats fact. Again.
I'd like to avoid multiple revertion, but until you actually read, understand and consider all sources and both viewpoints, as I and others have, you are going to see slanted, and edit slanted and that won't be okay on this site. Wikipedia is not a means of advocacy, Headley, or a place for saying "I withdrew some incorrect facts so other misrepresentative information should be allowed to stay". Its a place facts and knowledge are represented neutrally, and the article at present doesnt. You need to stop, read WP:NPOV and fix them, or others will. FT2 17:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


FT2. You censored the bottom of the paragraph for the sake of fanatical promotion. You are biased. YOU told me that you think NLP is extremely powerful. The SCIENCE goes against that. You persist in posting your own POV on the article. YOU have not read the research. You seem to care nothing for history. NLP has plummeted to pseudoscientific status since it has failed to provide evidence for efficacy since the 80s.

You present Sharpley as if he thinks NLP is just like psychoanalysis. He actually states that it is relegated to QUESTIONABLE status in terms of professional accountability. (clearly because NLP proponents make wild claims that fail to be even normally effective). Psychoanalysis proponents do not make wild claims about giving people orgasms just by talking, or learning photographic memory etc.

The one line with the greatest certainty is the one I provided for you in the opening. It is the line that the other researchers refer to when they talk of NLP's pseudoscientific status. HeadleyDown 17:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Mmm. I think I know what's going on here. It seems that FT2 has not much actual information on NLP testing and has only one negative paper on NLP and wants to screw as much positive out of it to promote his darling NLP. OK, now here is the sequence of statements in the text to help all other people clarify what Comaze, um I mean FT2 is trying to do.

1. The results of Sharpley's paper show that NLP is unsupported by data. 2. Sharpley discusses. (note that in a discussion session you use lots of perpapses, maybes, mays etc because you are being speculative) 3 During his speculative discussion he says that NLP is unsupported. 4 Then he says that Einspruch MAY be right about difficulties in testing 5 Then he says that IF that is so NLP MAY be in the same category as psychoanalysis 6 Then he says BUT......If it is tested and fails, then it is relegated (relegated means that it drops in the eyes of scientist. NLP has fallen. Dumped etc

8 Sharpley concludes (just as in the quote presented by Headley) that CERTAINLY, NLP is unsupported by the scientific data.

Sharpley does not say NLP is unsupported BUT it is just like psychoanalysis. He says that NLP would be like psychoanalysis, BUT it has failed in tests.

Now we all know that Comaze, um I mean FT2 is completely fanatical about NLP. The latest up to date (current) information on the scientific testing of NLP shows very clearly that it is scientifically unsupported. The views of scientists (not just Sharpley but other more recently published writers (not 20 years ago)) are that NLP is pseudoscientific because it is unsupported, because NLP pseudos like to twist the findings after the fact, because NLP pseudos use even more obscurantisms etc.

Since the dawning of the Internet wild west, and the mass sale of snakeoil, NLP has seriously fallen down to negative cultic levels in the eyes of scientists and psychotherapists.

The present opening is very mild. If you want to keep pushing it, Comaze, I mean FT2, then you will find it suddenly becoming far more balanced towards science and away from skewed pseudoscience. JPLogan 01:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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