Talk:Sol Invictus

Winter Solstice

In the Roman period the winter solstice was on 21st December as it is now. For roughly three days prior to, and three days after the solstice the movement of the rise of the sun is imperceptible. Dec 25th is the first day on which the sunrise can be seen to have moved North form its six days standstill. This is why the sun is "victorious" over the darkness. Perhaps there should be a paragraph offering some clarity about this, since it seems integral to the celebration of Sol Invictus. I'm undoing the change because its misleading to say the solstice was on the 25th Dec.Mrpearcee (talk) 06:33, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

From the wikipedia page of Elagabalus (Roman emperor from 218 AD - 222 AD):

"Elagabalus replaced Jupiter, head of the Roman pantheon, with a new god, Deus Sol Invictus, and forced leading members of Rome's government to participate in religious rites celebrating this deity, which he personally led."

This suggests he was not in fact created by Aurelian in 274..

--Ilyushin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.251.156.185 (talk) 07:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

CheeseDreams: You are probably right that "Sol Invictus" refers to several gods, and those should therefore be distinguished. It is, however, a single title, and it's worth having a history of that title's usage.

In particular, there's been some caution in recent scholarship about a hard-and-fast equation between Aurelian's imperial cult on the one hand and Mithraism on the other. An article on the title can address issues like that, where a simple disambig cannot. Bacchiad 20:36, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There is no previous history of Sol Invictus before November 27, 2004, when User:CheeseDreams moved it to Sol Invictus (disambiguation). The feature "What links here" shows established links. --Wetman 23:40, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure quite what you mean by that?

The history should have moved too.

The disambiguation was to put in to allow the rock group and the two different gods to be disambiguated.

I was under the impression I had removed double redirects, but I will go and check that again.CheeseDreams 23:46, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• So, entering "Sol Invictus" at Wikipedia (a reasonable enough quest), will the reader reach information on the Roman cult of the "Unconquered Sun"? --Wetman 03:06, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Which Roman cult dedicated to which "unconquerable sun" ?

Thus the redirect to a disambiguation page. CheeseDreams 12:06, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

(Which Roman cult? User:CheeseDreams has offered Wikipedians an entry "Festival of the birth of the Unconquered Sun", with unusual assertions that bear looking into... --Wetman 21:21, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC))

Actually no, that is a complete lie. I did not write the article Festival of the birth of the Unconquered Sun, nor have I made any significant contribution to it. See that article's history for proof. Apology please. CheeseDreams 00:41, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

(Our tactful contributor's name appears twice in the Page history there. I mistook this for contributions. My error. --Wetman 00:45, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC))

So a further accusations rather than a real apology? See Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:Assume good faith. CheeseDreams 00:56, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Yes! Thank you, User Anthony Appleyard. --Wetman 08:23, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

There are a couple of points worth noting, that call into question some of the assertions in this article:

1. The earliest dated mention of Sol Invictus is an inscription of AD 158, i.e. long before Elagabal.

The location and some description of this AD 158 inscription will be essential, so that this assertion can be followed by by interested readers.

1. Sol is depicted in Roman art continuously from the 1st c. BC to the 4th c. AD with a very consistent iconography. There is no way to tell from the iconography whether a Sol is Indiges or Invictus.

If the art here is numismatics, bas-reliefs or sculpture it would be better to say so. One or two famous examples that we should all know about should be pointed out.

1. Invictus (Greek aniketos) is used in many contexts, and is closely linked to Alexander the Great and Hercules. -- Anon

Additionally, the cult of Hercules was closely linked to the Julio-Claudians. See the fresco illus. at Herculaneum.

(Wetman's suggestions interpolated in italics.)

Sounds good. Feel free to edit away. Bacchiad 07:19, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

this is an old conversation i know but i thought i should point out that the winter solstice did not occur on the 21st during the roman period. at the time the julian calendar was put into affect Bruma (tr: winter solstice/shortest day) was said to occur on December 25.

this is why sol invictus lasted until the 25th when they converted to the calendar. the 21st wasnt a reoccurring date for the solstice until the gregorian calendar was adjusted in the late 16th century.99.140.208.150 (talk) 19:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit suggestions

• "titulature": if this show-stopper does convey more specific information than "title", and if that information is relevant to Sol Invictus, it should be expanded. Otherwise "title" is sufficient.
• Coin-collector's gallery of images: The coin of Aurelian was integrated with the text. The tiny gallery shot does not show the detail that makes this illustration relevant.
• The bold plug for a band at the heading: a conventional For the band, see... would be less distracting. --Wetman 6 July 2005 19:52 (UTC)

I agree with the others, but the reference to the band must be placed at the beginning, since someone looking for the band isn't expected to read the whole article.--Panairjdde 7 July 2005 10:14 (UTC)

Now I've given it the simple standard redirect heading, without bolding, without extra hyperlinks. --Wetman 7 July 2005 19:52 (UTC)

"Unlike the earlier, agrarian cult of Sol Indiges ("the native sun" or "the invoked sun" - the etymology and meaning of the word "indiges" is disputed"

Native sun is not probable, why would the Romans need to differentiate between a native and foreign sun centuries before the 'oriental' sun god was adopted? Most scholars now think Indiges means 'divine ancestor' and refers to Sol's ancestral role to the Latin people via Latinus.

New essay needs citations

Parts see also through external links are on the page twice —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.199.56 (talk) 03:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

"However, given evidence for a substantial Christian population in the empire by Aurelian's reign, an earlier Christian tradition associating March 25 and December 25 with the conception and birth of Jesus respectively, and the already existing use of solar language for Jesus among Christians (based on Malachi 4:2), it is also possible that Aurelian tried to appropriate an existing Christian observance for his festival of the Unconquered Sun."

Quite an assertion! --Wetman 05:20, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Reference

It would be nice to have a reference for "Aurelian dedicated the Sol Invictus Temple on Dec 25, 274", I'm pretty sure it is correct but don't happen to have a reference at the moment. It might be in the references cited by Gibbon (see link on page). References might be provided in Eliade's Encyclopedia of Religions.

From Catholic Encyclopedia Christmas [1]: "Natalis Invicti. The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont's epoch-making "Textes et Monuments" etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. Mommsen (Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, 12, p. 338) has collected the evidence for the feast, which reached its climax of popularity under Aurelian in 274. Filippo del Torre in 1700 first saw its importance; it is marked, as has been said, without addition in Philocalus' Calendar."

• These references in Cumont are wrong. The reference in the CIL does not mention Aurelian. 84.69.54.28 21:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Strange that a Catholic Encyclopedia reference is wrong. It might be a scanning error in the online edition, perhaps a print edition would have the correct reference.

This is the Zosimus reference Zosimus: "Aurelianus ... erected that sumptuous temple of the sun, which he ornamented with all the sacred spoils that he brought from Palmyra; placing in it the statues of the sun and Belus"

Gibbon cites Eusebius' Chronicon, that may be the source of the 274 date.

Gibbon: "Vopiscus in Hist. August. 222. [Aurel. c; 39.] Zosimus, l. i. [c. 61, p. 53] p. 56. He placed it in the images of Belus and of the Sun, which he has brought from Palmyra. It was dedicated in the fourth year of his reign (Euseb. in Chron. [an. CCLXXV.]), but was most assuredly begun immediately on his accession."

It's in Jerome's Chronicle: "Aurelian builds a temple to the Sun -275" (probably means late 274, does note 4th year of Aurelian)

Syrus

Is "the scriptor Syrus" referenced on this page Ephraem Syrus (Ephrem the Syrian) or a different Syrian? Daibhid C 01:06, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

• 'scriptor Syrus' does seem meaningless: it only means 'the Syrian writer'. Perhaps the author could supply his source?

It refers to 12th Century Syrian Bishop who wrote the reasons for 25th December being adopted as a counter to the feast of Sol Invictus, his name eludes me for the moment. See Ramsay MacMullen Paganism and Christianity in the 4th to 8th Centuries.

Read S.Hijmans in BabEsch "The Sun which did not rise in the East: The cult of Sol Invictus in the light of the non-literary evidence." Hijmans demolishes the notion that Sol Invictus was an eastern divinity or even had the slightest link to the east. Sol Invictus' origins are to be found in Rome and Rome alone, not in the Orient. An Australian researcher also gave a presentation on Roman SOl Worship at a Classical Talk last year and also vehemently denied the concept of Sol Invictus being of a different origin than Sol Indiges.

Mithras?

"While not officially identified with Mithras, Aurelian's Sol borrowed many features from Mithraism, including the iconographical representation of the god as a beardless youth."

In fact, Sol depicted as a beardless youth hails from Graeco-Roman traditional imagery of Sol/Helios. See any artistic piece of the sun god from the 5th c. b.c.e onwards to see this. It has nothing to do with Mithras; in fact one of the main pieces of evidence that finally demolished the identification of Sol Invictus with Mithras was the complete differences in depiction. Mithras is almost always instantly identifiable by his Persian dress and his act of the tauroctony, Sol is never depicted in this manner.

Also, the identification of Jesus with Sol based on the painting in the Tomb of the Julii is now thought to be highly suspect. In fact, the Christian identification of the tomb is not certain. The 1950's works by Toynbee etc must be viewed with some scepticism now. See 2000, “Language, Metaphor, and the Semiotics of Roman Art: Some Thoughts on Reading the Mosaics of Mausoleum M in the Vatican Necropolis”, BABesch 75, 147-164

The references from the Catholic Encyclopedia for the Tomb of the Julii are outdated, and articles such as the above should be viewed rather than using old sources. No expert now views these as being Christian in origin.

Sol Invictus in 250

There is something suspect about using the representation in the golden tomb of 250 as Jesus=Sol Invictus. The state sun cult of Sol Invictus did not exist until 274! It has to be a representation of Helios, therefore, and so doubtfully relevant here. Roger Pearse 15:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed and it is also reading too much into the portrayal's meaning rather than seeing it at face value. 19th century scholars were utterly obsessed with notions of Christian development and the link with solar monotheism and saw everything within this paradigm, in fact it is often very surprising that the contextual evidence for these assertions are non-existent.

The Tomb of the Julii is a depiction of the pagan Roman Sun God, it has nothing to do with the early Christian Church. The same goes with all representations of Christ-Helios. Not one of these can be categorically stated to be of Jesus and given the context of the divine charioteer, the most obvious conclusion is that these are portrayals of Sol-Helios.

Just a note: you can indent your response with the colon (I've done it for you), and add your name and date by just using four "~" characters. Both these make it easier to read.

Glad to see that someone else has been reading Hijmans' articles. Have you seen Halsberghe's book? Richard Gordon described it online as 'wretched' and it is. Roger Pearse 22:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I have a copy of Halsberghe's book. Its useful as it lists all the CIL's etc etc that are relevant but yeah it is terrible in its conclusions and arguments. How many times does he contradict himself in the one work???? Sad thing is that the OCD and modern French works are still pouring out the orientalist rubbish regarding Sol.

The new version of this article is absolutely shocking and should be reverted to what it was late last year, whoever wrote it has never read Hijmans or Berrens by the look of things. Do not write on academic subjects if you are not up to date in your readings. The section on Sol and Christianity is so wrong as to be laughable. For the last time, there is nothing to indicate that the Tomb of the Julii is a Christian tomb. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.43.227.18 (talk) 04:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

If you have a Wikipedia: Reliable sources, add it, without deleting the current reliable sources. Keep in mind wikipedia policy of No Original Research. 75.0.1.106 08:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The works by Hijmans are almost 10 years old, and Berrens is at least 2-3 years old now and far more reputable than Halsberghe. Even the briefest search on Halsberghe on google will reveal what most experts think of him.

Halsberghe is not a reliable source, all experts on Roman helioaltry consider him a joke. Again, please read Hijmans people!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.227.18 (talk) 05:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

This article is heavy christian influenced... it's not a surprise... the cult of Sol Invictus is very arcaic and is present in almost every ancient culture. In the Roman Era was worldwide in expansion since the time of Pompey The Great, and had an Imperial favour since Settimius Severus and then Elagabalus, so Aurelian is NOT the first Emperor that had worshiped Sol Invictus.

Archaic?? Hardly. The cult of Sol is indeed archaic, but there is no evidence for the epithet invictus being attached to Sol before the reign of Antoninus Pius. The god worshipped by Elagabalus is not the same as that worshipped by Aurelian, and Septimius Severus was primarily devoted to Serapis and showed very little sign of devotion to Sol, in fact, no more than many other emperors (in fact, Gallienus showed far more devotion that SS did.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.227.18 (talk) 05:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Sol Invictus or Christmas first?

The following mystification has been removed here, for editing:

The Sol Invictus festival ran from December 22 to December 25. It has traditionally been assumed that eradicating the remnants of this pagan holiday was a reason why Christmas was picked by the early Catholic leaders as the birthday of Jesus Christ. More recently there is evidence that Christian celebration of Christmas pre-dates the Sol Invictus festival .

I do understand that traditionally it has been assumed that the Christians picked on 25th December to replace the Sol Invictus festival. However more recently it has been recognised that there is increasing evidence for the priority of Christmas (as a celebration at least). If you revert an article you should explain why you are doing so. Mercury543210 20:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Please briefly edit into the article the "evidence" noted in your source,which has been moved here for editing. Merely alluding to it is deceptive. Tighe's central assertion might well be quoted, for a start: "The pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians." He admits that "it is true that the first evidence of Christians celebrating December 25th as the date of the Lord’s nativity comes from Rome some years after Aurelian, in A.D. 336." He then introduces a series of red herrings concerning various Christian attempts to settle the birth of Jesus on 25 December, but his conclusion is sound: "Christmas (December 25th) is a feast of Western Christian origin. In Constantinople it appears to have been introduced in 379 or 380." Neither Tighe's convolutions nor his own conclusions demonstrate his thesis. This mumbo-jumbo is no better than run-of-the-mill special pleading by any mediocre Wikipedian. It is not suitable for inclusion in a neutral presentation of the facts of Sol Invictus. --Wetman 20:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe we are all united in the aim of providing the most objective and accurate information. I find that some of comments made by Wetman rather unhelpful. Phrases like 'hocus pocus' and 'mumbo-jumbo' are better left in Harry Potter. Tighe's article should not be caricatured. If it is felt that Tighe made claims beyond the evidence, then cite the basis for this. IMHO, Tighe's article makes a reasonable argument and is widely cited.

-> "If it is felt that Tighe made claims beyond the evidence, then cite the basis for this." Sorry, but this is not how peer-reviewing process works. It is Tighe's burden to prove that he is correct, not other's people burden to prove that he is incorrect. I've looked at Tighe's article and I couldn't find his references - what are his sources?! I've been doing research based on scientific journal articles and those have references crawling out of their pages. This Touchstone journal doesn't seem to be very thorough with their peer-review process (if they even are a peer-review magazine). Also, who is citing Tighe's article is a question. If it's evangelical ministers, then I'd hold off with the conclusion that he's correct. If it's professors of history backing up his claims, then I'd be willing to bite the information.

The earliest reference to Christmas being celebrated on 25th Decmember dates to 243AD, see Schmidt, Alvin, J.(2001), "Under the Influence", HarperCollins, p377-9. This pre-dates Aurelian's decree by about 30 years. Apparently a full discussion is given in Thomas J. Talley’s "The Origins of the Liturgical Year", 2nd edition (College-ville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1991), pp. 9–10, 85–103, and incidentally is cited by Tighe, but I've not read this. If anyone has I would be interested in hearing their views.

Whether Jesus was, or was not, born on this day is deeply irrelevant. To paraphrase Origen "only sinners celebrate their birthday" . Not a view I hold myself!

I do believe we are all united in ensuring that this entry gives a fair and balanced overview of the history and does not perpetuate any 'myth'. Our exchange of views should be done in a manner which brings us all forward towards a consensus and without having to resort to 'mumbo-jumbo'. Mercury543210 16:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I just don't understand why there is such sentences in this article : " Other recent Christian commentators also agree that..." and so what ? If we quote Christian commentators, why not the pastafarians ? How could Christian commentators be reliable ? They're not looking for the truth, they want to prove that JC has existed and was born on 25 December. Let's stand with the facts :
- nobody knows when the Christ, if ever he has existed, was born
- we know that the cult of Sol Invictus was celebrated on 25 december
- it's very common that christian religions exploit pagans cult to their benefits, when they are unable to censor it. Just like Bill Gates will buy any product he's unable to compete with, in order to make his own.
- Christmas celebration may have started from the 4th century, but has not been an important feast before the middle age.
So let's stop the christian propaganda, please.

Taz0 23:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Opening essay

At some point someone wrote an essay in the introduction, ignoring the remainder of the article. I've moved this out -- let's keep the introduction (a) brief and (b) uncontroversial -- to a separate section.

The essay itself contains much very dubious material. References offered do not consist of scholarship or primary sources, but to general encyclopedias. It also duplicates other sections on the page. I've therefore pruned it very aggressively down to what seems to be (a) not already discussed (b) not proper to other pages such as Mithras or Christmas and (c) actually factually correct and backed up by works such as Halsberghe.

The real problem with Sol Invictus is the sheer lack of ancient data, and the quantity of modern myth-making. If we insist on either primary sources or scholarship, and reference both, that would seem more useful?

If someone reckons more can be rescued, by all means restore it. Roger Pearse 11:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not a specialist of this question, but it seems you are deleting a lot of referenced material here. The fact that the data provided "do not consist of scholarship or primary sources, but to general encyclopedias" is not sufficient in itself, as "general encyclopedias" clearly can be used for referencing purposes, and are often preferable to even primary sources.PHG 06:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Well leave the crap in there then. Silly idiot. Roger Pearse 14:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

One needs an overriding justification, like factual errors, to delete sourced material. The best way to improve the opening is to give it better balance with more rather than less information, sourcing your additions. --Wetman 23:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I liked RP's ed. It did seem to tidy things up and make it clearer. I think the very short intro followed bya section on dating is a good approach. I also agree with Wetman that we have to be careful about sources but that general sources can be useful and more readable. I am however concerned about using such an old edition of the Catholic Encyclopaedia, especially as the reference link seems to have been 'butchered'. Mercury543210 21:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

More recent not POV?

The reason I've held fairly fast to the phrase 'more recent' is simply that the Catholic Ency. ref is over 70 years (1917 vs 1991) older than the two refs cited. I'm using 1991 as I believe both the sources cited ref. back to Talley’s book. The original 'scholarly consensus' is being revised (reviewed?) in the light of 'more recent' (yep, that phrase again) work. Hence it seems to be a statement of fact and not POV. If you would prefer another phrase which covers the same territory then please suggest it. Thanks. Mercury543210 22:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Sol Iustitiae?

What is the basis for the RC claim that this epithet, familiar from Iam, Christe, sol iustitiae— demonstrably tenth century but claimed to be Ambrosian of the sixth century in spite of its rhymes!— was used in the beginning of the third century? Even Catholic Encyclopedia needs to provide a citation. --Wetman 14:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's in Cyprian somewhere. Roger Pearse 13:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roger Pearse (talk • contribs)

NPOV dispute regarding "use of the phrase" section

This section says that the Catholic Encyclopedia's claim (in 1908) that Christmas was based off of Sol Invictus is "no longer credible." The question of whether a claim is credible or not is a obviously a point of view. It does appear that many Christians (including the Pope) now dispute that Christmas was based off of Sol Invictus. My problem is that the section appears to be implying that the point of view that Sol Invictus was an attempt by the Pagans to co-opt Christmas is right. This section needs to be balanced with opposing points of view. Life, Liberty, Property (talk) 00:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully this is not a matter of POV but of history. The evidence for the Sol Invictus festival is increasingly that was instituted to distract from the increasingly popular cult of Christianity. The other edits do not belong here, they are about a different festival which shares the same date! I have accordingly removed them. Mercury543210 (talk) 14:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Bogus stuff in phrase section

The following dubious-looking paragraph plainly doesn't belong in the phrase section, and duplicates stuff lower down.:

December 21st is and was the date of the winter solstice, which the Romans called bruma. For three days before the 21st and three days afterward the movement of the sun is imperceptible. The 25th December is the first day that the dawn of the sun can be perceived to have moved North from its most Southerly solstice position. Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was the celebration of the rebirth of the sun, for from then on daylight hours would grow longer and the nights shorter.

The reference to the EB is fake; the EB article contains nothing of the kind. Someone dumped a series of statements in this section, all with fake references. I've deleted or moved them all. Roger Pearse 13:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roger Pearse (talk • contribs)

Fixed Text Repeat

I fixed a text repeat which caused all of the text on the page from use of term to Constantine to repeat once. Try to be more careful if your going to edit this page people. --Stelionis Ignigenae (talk) 10:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Sabbath to Sunday Comment

"In the meantime, the Christians, who had for a long time separated themselves from their Jewish forebears, had made the Day of the Sun their holy day rather than continuing their religious celebrations on the Day of Saturn, the Jewish Sabbath."

Removed above unsourced statement from the article. The evidence from many sources show Christians were worshiping on Sunday long before the time of Constantine. See DA Carson's book From Sabbath to Lord's Day (1999). Lamorak (talk) 03:12, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes cofused about SunDay Sol Invictus

WSas SunDay always the Day of the Sun? Was helios and or Appollo worshiped on that day? Thaks!(snpmapl120921stcent.)Andreisme (talk) 01:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)