Talk:Podcast

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OK, we need one list of lists of podcasts

Quite frankly, this article is more useful with at least one link to a list of podcasts. I have done even better. I have, after some struggle with Google, found a list of lists of podcasts. It took me quite some struggle on Google to find places like Odeo and what not; this article has far more value to someone who didn't know anything about podcasts up until about a week ago by having precisely one link to a list of lists. I understand the List of Podcasts article was deleted and I understand the concern about podcasters abusing Wiki to promote their own podcast, but I don't think decreasing the value of this article is the answer. Samboy 05:35, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

What if we don't have a static list of PodCasts? Let's just have a list that constantly updates itself and only show the top 10 downloaded podcasts? Zhanster 13:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't Yahoo - setting up constantly-changing lists is asking for a bloated and yet out-of-date article (as the excitement fades, editors will move on to other articles and the dead links will accumulate). Eighty percent of the editing on this article over the last six months has been adding, deleting and twiddling with exterior links. That's not what wikipedia is all about; we're not a directory or link farm. Personally, I'd dump all the links to podcasts or lists or podcasts, leaving only explainers. - DavidWBrooks 14:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I think one reasonable compromise is to have only one or two links and have a As of October 28, 2005 note before the list of links. The links save one who doesn't know about podcasts from having to play the Google game, while not being too numerous to not be maintainable. In fact, I will do this; I think it is a reasonable compromise between having no links and having a zillion links. Samboy 19:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

They've started returning already! - DavidWBrooks 22:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a good idea, just have one or two links as a excample. We can't have not links because then the readers can't find a proper excample. Zhanster 09:34, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The trouble is that 20 different people will want 20 different sets of "one or two links", so we'll be swamped. That's what keeps happening. - DavidWBrooks 12:43, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

The way I'm getting around this subjectivity is to score links based on the Google link:www.postcastsitename.foo score; I put this score next to the link and the date for the score. Sites with a link score of zero are deleted on the spot (I deleted two such sites). I also delete sites that sell commercial software. My heuristic is a little fuzzy, but I'm far less inclined to delete a link that is itself a list of podcast indexes a.k.a. http://www.podcast411.com/page2.html.

Basically, what I'm trying to remove is links being added by the spammers promoting their own Podcast search engine or podcast writing software (I deleted that link also). I think the Google link: score is a good Heuristic, as is adding lots of bonus points for adding links to other podcasting search engines, the way podcast411 does (the bonus only counts if the link here on Wiki directly links to the list in question). Wiki's job is to point to information already decided to be notable, not try and make non-notable information notable (this is also why I would like to see 99% of the micronation article thrown out) Samboy 17:23, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Yep, great idea guys. Zhanster 00:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, how is this for removing links

I have changed my criteria for adding a link here. I don't think we should allow links to a Podcast search engine, because there seem to be about two zillion of those and we'll quickly find ourselves fighting link rot. What I think we should allow is a link to a list of podcast search engines. A link to a podcast search site can very well be added here for commercial gain; a list of podcast search sites is a list that helps build up the podcast community. If we get too many links to lists of podcast search sites, we can use the Google link:www.listoflistofpodcasts.foo score to weed out the non-notable ones. Do other users here feel this is a reasonable compromise between the need to have at least one link, but have as few links as possible? Samboy 17:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

As for Podcast players, in order to stop people from listing their commercial player here, I have made the list of players a list of open source players. People willing to give something away to the community are helping build up the community; others who have a more commercial interest, IMHO, should not have their player listed here. Again, it's to avoid linkrot and making this page have too many links to be useful to a Podcast newbie. Samboy 17:44, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

podbaby.net spammer

Just a heads up that a spammer has twice added a link to their podbaby.net website from here. I will remove this site whenever I see it here; it is not a list of podcasts and looks to be one of those sites where you have to pay for them to spam your podcast to search engines. Samboy 18:51, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

A webPod a virtual iPod

To listen to podcasts you can use a webPod. It's a virtual iPod, all is online no software to download, the list of podcasts is included by Webservice. The player is standalone. And if you want the player in your website, only add some lines of HTML code, it's free! Do you think I can add a link in this page and where? (because it's a new way to enjoy podcasting). http://www.mirpod.com

pre-podcast

To the anonymous IP who put in a long discussion about pre-podcast Websites of sound files and the like, which I removed, remember that it takes an automatic download, RSS-like, feature to make a podcast. Online sound and radio shows and music isn't the same thing. - DavidWBrooks 22:20, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Pseudo-archived (a.k.a. deleted)

Linked at top of page. - brenneman^(t)(c) 07:30, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Pointcast was an automatic download of text, audio and video in the earlier days of the net, as were some of the push technologies like backweb, you'd push and then subscribe to a audio or in limited cases - video channel. It was mostly audio - as bandwidth times restricted audio downloads. The difference may be that these were proprietary sources and you could only get pointcast content on pointcast. They aggregated the content sources. This was done to a screen saver or through a piece of software that was termed "push" in those days or "webcasting". Webcasting can/has been defined as live audio or video via the net and other devices as well as live and download in a number of books by Wiley, N.A.B. and others. Now - the streaming media industry is saying that downloads have always been a part of streaming, and on-demand video whether download or streamed is a part of streaming. The actual technical movement of a file digitally is streaming, using different formats whether mp2, mp3 (not really technically mp3), mp4, mp21. Streaming is a more technical term explaining the distribution of audio and video in a digital format.

There were early download sites that pushed audio and had subscriptions. They didn't last, as it was a cost feature and they couldn't support the technology costs. I believe one was TSK if I remember correctly. I don't remember pseudo having a subscription engine, but remember a couple of sites trying to set up audio push/downloads to listeners/consumers. Just an FYI. I didn't see what was deleted in regard to Pseudo. I assume you were talking about pseudo.com.

The key factor for podcasts via RSS (in my opinion) is that it's not controlled by one content distributor. You have the ability to access content from a number of sources, not just say - RealNetworks, the former pointcast, your cable company, your TV station's content etc. You can access content created by individuals as well as by broadcasters and other corporations.

I'm also wondering why the information on Harry Fox - necessary to license music downloads was removed off the legal issues. If you're not using podsafe music - you need to license the music from Harry Fox or another firm, or the original source of the music. That's the law in the US. In other countries - you have to go through their licensing agencies for replay of the song via download, a clip, version, background music, and the like. When broadcasters licensed the music for some of their intros., etc., they may have only licensed it for on-air use and not Internet streaming or download use.

Some podcasters also stream as well as provide downloads, for those who don't have portable devices. The majority don't own portable devices yet, but can experience RSS now. So streaming is a valuable component if you want to gain more and more people as a podcaster.

Podcasters who stream as well as download have to concern themselves with BMI, ASCAP, Sesac licenses in the US, and other licensing bodies in other countries.    Despite fast access and the ability to download files in the US, Japan, Korea and other advanced Internet access countries, there are countless that would like to listen to files, and might not be able to download to a device due to shared computers, accessing by Internet Cafe and the like in other countries and even in developed countries.  

A streaming file of a few seconds is also an effective way to preview a podcast without the wait, especially on slower speed downloads. If you say a podcast is only a download through a reader - and not a link to a streaming file on a reader or through RSS syndication, what is streaming called if the link is being distributed through RSS, or you're accessing a stream through a P2P network. It's no longer just a stream, but a syndicated stream?

What's the term du jour for video blogging, for sites like rocketboom.com.

I hope these issues are okay for discussion here. I hate to see statements that the legal issues for podcasting are not yet known. Many - if not all of the legal issues if you're using copyrighted material are law today, whether one likes it or not. If you're interested in the legal issues related to podcasting - review the laws for downloading mp3 files. They are very very much alike. There may be additional SAG, AFTRA and other laws for talent if you have subscribers from many territiories or locations. That's if you work with talent that are in a union.

Cheers - pm vox

Streaming comparison

I think the comparison of streaming media to podcasting is off the mark. While streaming is used for live events, it is also used for Video-On-Demand. Podcasts are saved to one's computer or player, streamed files are not. (Of course I create VOD files that are made available for download via web pages.) The main difference is the delivery method. Clients need to pull a stream off the web rather than waiting for the RSS push. File formats are also different as most streams are delivered as WinMedia, Real or QuickTime. Mpeg formats (mpeg4 in particular) are becoming more popular for video streams, but the big three still rule. BethFell 18:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Revisionist histories

For some reason a person at 82.108.78.107 keeps removing vital material that explains some of the history of the development of podcasting. This has happened in the past, and I just noted it. I reverted the section that the person changed to its original composition. --Buridan

Yeah okay this story got digged. a quick link, if you come from there is

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=82.108.78.107 and the http://www.ripe.net/perl/whois?form_type=simple&full_query_string=&searchtext=82.108.78.107&do_search=Search

Now either adam did it for ego or else is not part of wikipedia. those where simple modifications most of them about the dave winer's case, had he made the script or not. Dave proved he did it, adam explained he didn't know. are we done now?

Apparently not. this news story tipped me off, and 82.108.78.107 made another edit a couple of days ago. Not being an expert on podcasting history, I'm not sure how things should read... Keep an eye out for 82.108.*.* since that whole network space is assigned to Adam Curry.[1] -- ke4roh 04:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Follow-up from Curry: He says he was having trouble figuring out the editing system (and my guess is he had difficulty because the article is so dynamic) and he said the history had become somewhat convoluted here. [2] -- ke4roh 19:44, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

If anybody's confused about this conversation, note that this thread was started after the one right below here ("pilot error"), even though they are both about the same topic, and covering the same material. -DavidWBrooks 00:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Pilot Error

According to Adam Curry's blog, the removal of Kevin Mark's contribution was entirly accidental, as it was to be rewritten. The conspiracy theorists can go home now. Play 05:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

interesting.... this is the second time though, doing it once, that's an error... doing it twice that looks a bit less erroneous. Also, in both cases it doesn't appear as if he returned to do the rewriting. but i guess... we should assume good intensions knowing that he has never done anything to mislead in the past.... --Buridan 10:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Favorite part of his entry: After about 20 minutes of trying to figure out the interface of the editing system I became exasperated and gave up. - DavidWBrooks 11:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Obviously we don't have a mindreader, but every one of the four so-called editing errors was in Adam's favor. Would you edit someone you knew out of Wikipedia by mistake and do nothing to correct it? - Rcade 13:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

There's an old saying: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". I'm happy enough that Curry screwed the pooch w.r.t. Wikipedia, by editing the article at all, in violation of the "no autobiographical edits" policy - see WP:AUTO. I'm still a Daily Source Code listener, and mistakes are a regular part of Curry's life and business... Stereoroid

I would have to be considered a biased source, because he's attacking my integrity on his blog in response to all of this, but Curry has now admitted on the weblog of one of the people he deleted from the podcasting entry that it was intentional [3]. As he commented, "When editing the 'history' I didn't feel this was a significant contribution in the chronology as it did not influence me." Rcade 16:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

History Section Rewrite

I'm proposing a rewrite of the history section, as detailed in this weblog post. I would appreciate feedback before doing so, in order to hopefully head off another edit war. Note that I have no conflict of interest in regards to podcasting. - Shelleyp 17:56, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Shelley, I think your proposed refactoring is fair and reflects the contribution of the core key players. I hope you'll go ahead with it and you get past the later entry on your weblog regarding technology writing - Marius (who is simply an interested bystander).

I made the change. I also suggest that the audioblogging people setup a separate topic page for this. Audioblogging is not synonymous with podcasting.Shelleyp 14:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Podcast receiver topic

Isnt it the same as a podcatcher or an aggregator (as mentioned inthe article above?) if it is the same, then they both references should have the same title!

iPodder script / ipodder.org Dates

Says the entry: "A month later, in October of 2003 at the first Bloggercon weblogger conference held at Harvard, Harold Gilchrist and Kevin Marks demonstrated a script to download RSS enclosures and pass them to iTunes for transfer to an iPod[8]. Following the conference, Curry offered his blog readers a RSStoiPod script that would do the same. He assigned an open source license to the script (which he called 'iPodder'), and published it online at ipodder.org; encouraging other developers to build on the idea."

This makes it sound like Adam Curry released his iPodder script on ipodder.org in 2003, but note that ipodder.org did not exist until September 2004:

Domain Name:IPODDER.ORG Created On:04-Sep-2004 22:58:44 UTC