Talk:Chain Home

List of Chain Home / AMES Type 1 Sites

I have added a list of CH sites from the book RDF1 mainly. I will add links to maps for those sites where I know the location and would also like to add a link a page with a few pictures etc for those sites that I have visited. Later I will do the same CHL etc but I will do that on a different page. jmb 08:50, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Kleine Heidelberg Parasit

Was Kleine Heidelberg Parasit used operationally?

• I did a GOOGLE search and one match suggests that it might not have been used operationally but the publication is a subscription one so can't get at the article. The GOOGLE reference shows as below --jmb 12:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

JSTOR: Clifford Paterson Lecture: Radar: New Techniques and ...

This 'Kleine Heidelberg' scheme, as the Germans named the proposal, was never operational. It is a possible form of 'multi static radar' not without ...[1]

As I read it, the book referenced indicated it was, but I'll try to get my hands on the book again. It said the British were aware of the system and tried unsuccessful countermeasures. Also mentioned was that it could penetrate Window, but why it could do so wasn't explained. The book was written by a British author drawing mostly on German sources. Karl Kleimenhagen 22:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I was able to read this work again, and I have added to the article references to this work. Karl Kleimenhagen 12:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Great Bromley

This message was sent through the geograph.org.uk web site as an email to RHaworth

The picture you have of a Chain Home mast looks very much like the the one near me, except perhaps for the power lines. I just had a spare moment this morning, (I live in Frating) and went for another look. The reference I have for the mast is around 609216,226013 (TM 09216 26013) *1*. 'Just off Hilliards Road' is correct.

We watched the four wooden receiver masts being dismantled in the early 70's. *2*

About a mile away at 608902,225355 (TM 08902 25355) are the remains of a small accommodation 'village' used I am told by locals to house quite a large number of people involved in operating the radar station. Most of the wooden buildings are very dilapidated but the brick ones and shelters are still in good condition. Apart from today, the last time I went there was 15 years ago, I met someone then who said they lived there and there are still some signs of habitation and repair.

It seems a pity that these important sites are decaying unrecorded.

I have not been able to find out if the people who worked the radar did this in huts near the masts or from the nearby 'village'. Do you know of anyone who might be interested or have some information on this?

Regards, J.

• Please check your *1* grid ref above. No disrespect, but I think it is plain wrong. I am very confident that the photo I took is of the mast that is marked on the map at TM 104 265. Also, it looks very much like the mast in the picture on the article page and it is close to Hilliards Road so I am sure that is the mast you are talking about.

I am a bit puzzled about *2* above. Do you mean the antennae themselves being removed from the mast in my picture or are you talking about some other masts?

Just to add to the confusion, I see a mast marked at TM 086 251 close to where Frating Road goes over the new A120 road. I cannot remember but I suspect that this is a modern mobile phone mast. It would be nice if you could pop up there and confirm. -- RHaworth 15:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

There would be a large camp where the personnel lived, were fed etc. Also an army guard on the site. The operators were in the large concrete blocks which often survive on site, one was the Transmitter block and the other the Receiver block. There would also be a reserve site nearby with its own Transmitter and Receiver buildings which might be underground on vulnerable East coast sites. English Heritage have been promising a book on WWII radar for some years but it has not appeared yet. There are a number of books on WWII radar, I would recommend Colin Latham's Radar A Wartime Miracle as a good introduction, RDF1 is a detailed history on the development of the British WWII ground radar system. You can find a list of books here. --jmb 15:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Restructure?

I'd like to restructure the article from it's current two parts, Overview and Sites, into three: Development, Operations, and the German Response. The current Sites section is rather dominant visually, and I'd propose repackaging its list into one paragraph within the new Operations section. Karl Kleimenhagen 19:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't see any problem with that though I think the "German response" should just be a passing mention with more details on a page on German radar systems. I started making up a list of CH sites in attempt to find their locations so thought that if I put on Wikipedia then others would be able to add to information to the list. Two things that do need adding to the page are a mention of the use of some CH sites for tracking V2 rockets and also the use of some sites post-WWII. I keep meaning to sit down and do the same for CHL sites as there are even more of those that I am not sure about. --jmb 19:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Moving the German use of Chain Home to another radar page occurred to me as well, and I nearly did so when adding the recent updates. However, it was not a primary German system, and it was useless without Chain Home. A brief mention of the Heidelberg device is already in the Passive Radar article as well, but expanding on it there would, I feel, be no better a fit than leaving it here. After following a few cross links through the Wikipedia radar articles, perhaps sticking the Heidelberg section here into the History of Radar article would be the best fit. Creating a mini-article on the Heidelberg would be another solution, but it would be a very small article. I'll ponder this before making any changes. Suggestions as to where best to move the Heidelberg section are wanted. Karl Kleimenhagen 21:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

LZ-130 Mission

The paragraph on the LZ-130 mission has become rather awkwardly worded. Pritchard found in German sources that the mission did find the Chain Home signals. He also says these emissions were suspected to be radar. Pritchard did not mention if the emissions were thought to come from the towers being investigated, but the assumption the Germans didn't bring a radio direction finder on such a mission runs rather unlikely. The assertion in the paragraph that it was "very likely" the Germans thought such a string of towers, emitting 20 microsecond pulses at even intervals, were for communication also looks to be unlikely. Perhaps the Germans imagined it to be a positioning system, such as GEE, but Pritchard didn't elaborate. References backing claims contrary to Pritchard need to be provided. Such sources should ideally reference German documents, for the question is over what the Germans knew at the time. Karl Kleimenhagen 20:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I remember reading somewhere (it may have been R. V. Jones' Most Secret War) that the Chain Home signals swamped the receivers on board the airship due to them resonating with the airship's large aluminium structure and the Germans therefore concluded that the towers were unlikely to be connected with an Early Warning system. Ian Dunster (talk) 12:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. I see that book is at my local library, and I'll pick it up when I return home. KarlWK (talk) 15:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I've just finished reading Most Secret War. There is no reference to the airship, so it must have been in another work. There would have been no "resonance" from within the airship frame. There could, of course, have been reflections which might confuse the receiving electronics. Pritchard's book remains the best source I've seen. KarlWK (talk) 09:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I wonder what book it must have been then - perhaps Alfred Price's Instruments of Darkness? - unless it was my memory playing tricks. Thanks for letting me know anyway. It may also have been in Bernard Lovell. A Biography by Dudley Saward, but it was a while ago (ten or fifteen years) when I read them. You could also try A. P. Rowe's One Story of Radar - Camb Univ Press - 1948. Ian Dunster (talk) 22:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hindenburg: an illustrated history, 1994, R.Archbold (ISBN 0-446-51784-4) mentions the LZ-130 missions. Under the engineer Ernst Breuning, radar surveillance was attempted from the Graf Zeppelin II. The ship's metal frame affected their direction finders, and they then tried listening from a basket suspended well below the ship. In early August of 1939, British Spitfires noticed this work, and the British demanded to inspect the ship.[p.207] The ship landed early and off loaded its equipment before the British could conduct their inspection inside. The results of the work of Breuning and his men was not conclusive, for despite his objections, other Luftwaffe work was interfering with their ability to hear signals at the frequency of the British radars, and Breuning's men listened to other frequencies.[p.208] Perhaps the Luftwaffe was seeing if they could jam the British signals?; no explanation was given. KarlWK (talk) 22:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting, although I wonder why the airship didn't just monitor the transmissions from out to sea rather than entering UK airspace and being made to land. IIRC (possibly not - LOL!) the Chain Home signals should have been detectable from as far as out as over the French and Belgian coasts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.254.8 (talk) 22:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Length of pulses?

It's stated above the pulses were 20 microseconds in length. Can this be added to the article with a citation? Tempshill (talk) 21:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Neale's article (one of the ref's cited) mentions the 20 microsec pulses. I've seen more complete details in books, but none are at hand. I'll look around the local library the next time I'm there. KarlWK (talk) 22:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

German knowledge

I've read of a dilemma faced sometimes by the British: If every German bombing run were intercepted, the Germans would certainly deduce that British radar worked well and should become the #1 target. Hence, British commanders sometimes decided not to intercept German bombing runs that had been detected, in order to decrease the probability that German commanders would deduce the significance (or existence) of Chain Home. You can imagine the difficulty of deciding this dilemma.

Is this a bunch of nonsense? If so, could someone write so in the article? The article currently states, pretty much, that Germany knew that the British most likely had radar, but somehow didn't ascribe it any importance. Tempshill (talk) 21:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I've not read of the RAF avoiding intercepts for that reason, but they may well have done so. Neither have I read that the Germans were certain the British radar was as useful as it was. My impression is that the Germans were confident they'd win, radar or no radar. KarlWK (talk) 22:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen such a claim. There have been suggestions that the Germans had not realised that the signals they were hearing from Chain Home were radar. The major advantage was what would now be called the Command & Control system behind the Chain Home radar sites and they would have no way of knowing how effective that was but it would rather defeat the object if you degraded its usefulness. --jmb (talk) 22:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you may be thinking about the breaking of the Enigma code. // Liftarn (talk) 14:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Dismantling of last Chain Home Wooden Reception Tower

When was the last of the Chain Home Wooden Reception Towers dismantled? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.46.198.148 (talk) 16:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Directions

I can't find the book now, but I've read that the radar had a problem with knowing if the echo came from the front (sea) or back (land). There was an incident with a group of RAF fighters being interpreted as German aircrafts so more fighters were scrambled and that resulted in even more echoes giving the impression of a major attack. // Liftarn (talk) 14:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

That's true but I can't remember how they got around it. The A. P. Rowe book I mentioned earlier (One Story of Radar) is pretty good for information on Chain Home IIRC, as he was the head of the TRE at the time.

Chain Home was also the system IFF was invented-for, Watson-Watt had it all thought out (including the 'Filter' rooms and the organisation for co-ordinating the results with the fighter stations, using dedicated land lines, etc.) even before the system was built.

CHL

"The Chain Home Low stations operated at 200 MHz on the VHF band"

Is the addition of "on the VHF band" necessary? --jmb (talk) 08:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)