Talk:List of Sengunthars

Some very bad mischief. The royal houses of Chola dynasty has no relation to this community. Please refrain from typing wrong information. Veerabagu thevar is not sengunthar caste. Why did you leave others like ayyanar, muruga, anjenaya, sarasvati, vishnu ? At this rate please also claim Obama is Sengunthar in america, Osama is sengunthar in Afganistan, Schumacher is sengunthar in germany, jacki chan is sengunthar in hong kong. thank you.

The legend connecting veeravagu thevar and sengunthar is their weapons(spear&dagger).such myths regarding the origin of this community since the time of 11th century
other myths regarding origin of other communities
BhoomaDevi created Velaalar
Vishwabrahmins descended from five sons of Lord Vishwakarma

etc...

chieftains under chola Emperor

Chieftains(thalaivan) and kings(kurunila mannar) of Chola dynasty were from velaalar and sengunthar communities who were the dominant people of chola nadu during 11th century —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 07:04, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

haiyo haiyo! phoolan devi created velaalar and viswabrahmins descended from lord viswakurma. You cannot include based on fiction and mythology. orey comedy ma. what is this angin varman, mangi varman ? i think you slept when your paati told that part. his name is agni varman. agni for fire. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 00:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

it's a real comedy from you(pre-christian era which you claimed in that page). can you quote a single source saying veeravagu(a legendary character) is a kallan or its sub-castes. if you can, the legendary part will be removed in this page. Go and read Kantha puranam first. its Angin vanman not agni as you claim. these are not fictional works. Legendary characters have been included in wikipedian pages-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legendary_early_Chola_kings

Don't make silly removal of chieftain names. online source is given if you suspect they are not sengunthars. Reference books are clearly mentioned.thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 07:37, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ikkada choodu Senaithalaivar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senaithalaivar, http://books.google.com/books?id=2SkbAAAAIAAJ&q=Senaithalaivar&dq=Senaithalaivar, http://www.senaithalaivarmatrimony.com/ and Paraiyans http://books.google.co.in/books?lr=&cd=17&id=wZI9AAAAMAAJ&dq=virabahu+descent&q=virabahu+#search_anchor Senaithalaivar, Sengunthar and Paraiyans all three claim him as their own. The only explanation is that all three groups elevated him to a demi-god status and cooked some nice story to fill in their history. Some nice halwa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 05:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

so you too joining the race along with these 3 communities in claiming the mythical character of veerabahu: ) .Atleast change AGNI VARMAN(your own character) to ANGIVANMAN. thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 07:15, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I did not invent Agnivarman. ada nesamma http://www.dlshq.org/download/shanmukha.htm Sasisekar (talk) 04:43, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Either it would be a printing mistake or Swami Sivananda would have put a different story. The authentic kantha puranam is here [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 15:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I read the tamil version. No, it is not a printing mistake. When I was searching for more links i came across something else. The tamil version is only an interpretation by kachiappa sivachariar of the original skanda purana from sanskrit (vyasa). it was only written in 15th century. so i think it might be agnivarman in sanskrit. sivachariar changed a few things like he included devayanai (indra's daughter) as murugan's wife. but in the original version, murugan gets married to deva-sena, that is indra's army. he is called the commander of indra's army. but i will try to find the sanskrit version to ascertain this. Sasisekar (talk) 04:42, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good job. when u come across a single word such as virabahu in skanda puranam of Sanskrit, Hindi it's done. Musukunda cholan's name is potrayed in chola paintings but not in inscriptions. High chances of him being a mythical character. Even if he had lived, it would be before 3000 years as claimed in another page containing Legendary Chola Kings, when castes were not formed

When it comes to Virabahu, it's even worse. He's purely a mythological character. Even though some castes claim him as their legendary progenitor of theirs when castes were formed, it's sengunthar who claimed him as their ancestor as early as 12th century(in the poetical work eeti ezhubathu) and in subsequent literary works. I doubt any mention of the name Virabahu before 12th century in any of literary works.

Now that, we can infer Virabahu,Chitravalli[2](daughter of Virabahu, who was married to Musumuka Chola(whose name was changed to musukunthan thence) were purely mythical. Including the mythical characters and claiming it to be pre-christian s a funny mischief —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaikolamudali (talk • contribs) 10:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No but flipping chola to pandiyar in the list page counts. Ithu poyattam. Why can't you wait, i told I will ascertain. You are speaking as though Ottakoothar introduced murugan and others to us. namma thenisai thendral deva mathiri , he has only copied from other works [3] and kantha puranam since eeti elupathu is dated in 13th century and most people date kandha puranam in 12th century. I will give the benefit of the doubt saying eeti elupathu might have also been in 12th century. But Kalinkatuparani also mentions these characters and it is in the 11th century[4] during the reign of Kulotungan I well before ottakoothar work. As for no castes in the pre christian era; maybe sengunthar was born around that time but Maravar, kallar were there during the pre-christian era. We are as old as the land itself, that is why the saying Mara-tamizhan. so dont jump the gun.thank you. Sasisekar (talk) 06:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ur arguments are weak and contradictory. I didn speak about Lord Muruga's introduction. It is well known that Muruga was portrayed as God by the people of kurinji in Sangam literature.

Koothar was born in late 11th century and was a court poet of four Chola Emperors starting from Vikrama Chola(1118 AD). He ended his life when Rajadhiraja Chola II (1163–1178) was ruling, well before 1200 AD. So Eeti ezhubathu was written in 12th century(not 13th century for sure). First u dated kantha puranam to 15th century and now to 12th century. kachiappar belonged to either 13th or 14th century(not 12th century)

In Kanthapuranam, Virabahu is a mythical figure and has no caste affliation whereas in Eeti ezhubathu, Virabahu is portrayed as a legend and as Sengunthar.

I did not say Koothar was the fisrt to introduce the concept of super-natural human viravagu but i doubted if Viravagu was mentioned in early literary works

Jayamkondar did not mention Veeravagu or chithiravalli in kalingathuparani. Insted he says a name Ikkuvagu in Naradhar varalaaru(a part of kalingathuparani)

The kalinga war-I is dated as 1094 AD and Kalinga War-II as 1100 AD. Jayamkondar would have completed his masterpiece in 110X AD(so this work also 12th century) but obviously before Eeti ezhubathu

Castes were formed distinctly only after Sangam period. There were no Varnas(Aryan imposition) and people belonged to 5 different lands. there were no mentioning of kallar/maravar/thevar during Valluvar's period(31 BC-XX) and before. Even in 12th century, other caste persons had thevar after their name. For example, Arulmozhi thevan alias Sekkilar is a Velaalar.

Social groups of 5 different lands in Sangam literature were Kuravar(Kurinji), Ayar(Mullai), Uzhavar(Marutham), Barathar(Neithal) and Eyinar(Palai)

Of the above, Kuravar, Uzhavar and Eyinar splitted into many castes. Ayar (also known as Edaiyar) and Barathar (also known as Paravar) are the castes existing since Sangam till today

Reply on my talk page.