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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 162.83.74.104 (talk) at 21:28, 13 January 2006 (→‎Future Episode Information). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:

 This page has a policy concerning future episodes, limiting their descriptions to published information from official sources. The policy was voted on from November 17 - November 24, 2005. For more information on the poll voting, see the archived poll section. The policy states:

  • Information on this page will be limited to official broadcasts, information taken from the ABC website, official LOST websites, official episode descriptions, and interviews with cast/producers/writers/directors.
  • Information extrapolated from commercials or previews, or spoiler websites will NOT be included on this page. This includes unverified episode titles, plot elements or flashback information.

Future Episode Information

Someone has uncommented the information for the future episode "The 23rd Psalm" with the comment that it has now been confirmed by ABC. Where is the cite for this? Does ABC explicitly state that the flashback information is for Mr. Eko? --DDG 21:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Though someone has put that it is "confirmed by ABC", until the editor provides a source (this can even be done in the edit summary), I will continue to revert it. Please discuss changes of this nature. --DDG 14:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't put it up, however it has been confirmed so I will revert. See ABC Media Net, press release.--Synflame 15:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I just Googled "ABC Media Net" (the site says "© 2005 ABC Inc." - I guess it's official) and then searched on their site for "23rd psalm." I came up with this page of twelve photos released two days ago. Each has a caption saying it's from the 23rd Psalm and then gives the air date, 11 Jan. I will update the table accordingly but leave the flashback area blank. — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 19:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the citation; the title is officially confirmed. However, I see no mention of the flashback information confirmed in any way so I will remove it from the template unless an official source can be provided here. --DDG 20:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm increasingly on the side of eliminating future references/placeholders altogether. I mean, think about it: having an episode listed with a blank caption like "Flashback:" is an open invitation for anybody who thinks they have that information (from whatever source) to insert it, in the honest belief that they're contributing to Wikipedia that way. I say get rid of future-related stuff. What purpose does it serve? Most of the discussions on this talk page seem to deal with that controversy. -- PKtm 23:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I think about it, I agree with PKtm's comments above. Why not remove the future information altogether? I'll try not to violate BEANS, but there are currently about six future episodes on the page - they're just all commented out except for 23rd Psalm. People edit them and then just leave the page without bothering to check for the info they just typed in on the actual page. This way, people have still added future episode info naively, and nobody can see it. I propose we continue that method for this page and then just patrol the template as before (since most do not know of that, either - and I guess I'm not violating BEANS since people who don't know about templates probably don't know about talk pages). — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 22:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
There has been no official information regarding any episode beyond the 23rd Psalm that I'm avare of. However, a couple of days ago ABC released a description for the 23rs Psalm, along with some Promotional Photos.
Here's the official link to the press realease: http://www.abcmedianet.com/ph_search...06&leftcol=cal
It states:
LOST - "The 23rd Psalm" - Mr. Eko interrogates Charlie about the Virgin Mary statue, Claire begins to lose faith in Charlie when she discovers his secret, and Jack is an interested observer when Kate gives the recovering Sawyer a much-needed haircut, on "Lost," WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 11 (9:00-10:00 p.m., ET), on the ABC Television Network. --The monkeyhate 15:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
So what about that statement, in a non-speculative fashion, tells you that the flashback is going to be Mr. Eko? Also, I have no problem with putting the official summary until the episode airs, but it should be defined as such for copyright reasons. I am going to comment out the flashback line for now and set off the official description. --DDG 18:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if we put 23rd Psalm back in the article, we should put it back in the table without flashback info. — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 19:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. Future episodes shouldn't be either in the table OR the article. Putting them in either one (even when based on "official" sources) just seems to invite people to add to them, and then we waste all our time reverting and arguing about it. If a Lost fan wants to hear about what might be upcoming, they can go to a fan site or buy a magazine at the supermarket. -- PKtm 19:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's my opinion that if it is factually based, than it can and should be in the table. Just because it hasn't been shown doesn't mean it isn't verifiable information that can be readily included.. -- Synflame 17:41, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Synflame. The poll above had no mention of a "future" or "time" factor, it merely limited the information on the page to official broadcast and press release information. Official press releases from ABC are verifiable, so they are not covered by the policy voted on above. However, we should all continue to comment out episodes not announced by ABC and flashback and plot speculation for the future episodes listed. --DDG 19:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look at the last week or two of edits. Most of our collective time is being spent taking out or putting in information about these future episodes. Once you open the door to including information on those episodes at all, you start relying on people's views of what "official" sources are, everything from TV Guide to Lost fan sites. Nearly all the people, even the non-anonymous ones, who keep inserting such information appear to be uninterested in participating in the dialog here about doing so. They simply keep removing the comments we insert. What futility, and I, for one, am tired of reverting. Again, I'm arguing that including any future episode information is, literally, asking for speculation. -- PKtm 16:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Trust me PKtm, no one here is more frustrated by these edits than I am. However, frustration to this degree is no reason to forgo the tenets of the Wikipedia, namely that "anyone can edit" and that we should be encyclopedic. There is no policy stating that future episode information is not encyclopedic, as long as it stays within the guidelines set forth by the policies so far. However, I appreciate that a lot of users are frustrated by this issue, and I will be using admin powers more actively to block regular and anonymous users that violate policies of verifiability, notability, and WP:3RR in the future. Hopefully after a few punitive blocks, these newer editors will get the guidelines of wikipedia down, or realize that the spoiler-fixes that they're looking for are better served by other websites. --DDG 00:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about the edits I did not realize the exact standards for editing the future episodes from User: Heyer8472. I didn't mean to vialiate the policy intentionally. I will only edit if the information is from the episode summary or from ABC.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Heyer8472 (talk • contribs)
It's okay - just learn from your mistakes and don't violate the policy again in the future. — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 00:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Quit being passive agressive. He already apologized and stated that he understands the rules. That means that it's not required for you to tell him not to break the rules again. To do so is very rude and the only purpose it serves is to remind yourself that you're somehow better than him, and attempt to remind him of that as well.
(To everyone) I was just putting information that were spoilers but the had sources. I thought that if you had a source it was okay, guess i was wrong, (Oh well). I added some pictures from Lost-media.com and I made them in smaller sizes so more info could be held on the page. from User: Heyer8472

This page's archives?

The time frames on those archives are overlapping(the third one is the cause), and it's bothering me slightly. I get that the third archive was the poll and related debates, so maybe instead of a date range it could have a topic heading? Maybe this doesn't actually bother anyone else at all, and I'm just being a perfectionist again. Tigger89 15:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As a test, I viewed this page with small windows (only 640 pixels wide) in both IE and Firefox (see screenshot below) and I didn't have this problem. What's your screen resolution (I only need width), OS, and browser? — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 22:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think what he's referring to is that the actual dates of discussions in Archive 2 and 3 are the same-- both include discussions through December 19. While I do like the new "topical" archive list, I agree that the ideal archiving would be chronologically broken out, without overlapping times. Perhaps some refactoring of some of the discussions is in order?--LeFlyman 23:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oh - I see now. Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page says to archive talk pages greater than 32kb in length. This was about 59kb so I archived the page. The article does not give any guidelines on what to archive. All it says is, Once the preview is on your screen, in the edit box, highlight the text you want to archive. Cut the highlighted text from the page using 'ctrl-X' (Windows) or 'command-X' (Mac), or the 'Cut' command of your browser's menu bar. I wanted to keep the controversy and voting so others could quickly reference it so I archived everything else, due to lack of better guidelines. However, the page was still 39kb. I looked later in the help article and it says, To complement or replace a series of sequential archives, consider organising archives by sub-topic. This is less appropriate for personal Talk pages than for Talk pages in the article or Wikipedia namespace, where it may be desirable to be able to refer to earlier discussions quickly. I decided that, to make the talk page even smaller (less than 32kb), I could create a subtopic archive that we could use to refer to about all the controversy. I also put the Future Episode Information in that archive but DropDeadGorgias unarchived that because it was somewhat current - I hope to archive it in archive 3 once it has been dead for one week. We can refactor it, but I think it would be better to instead go with one of the two following options:
  1. Switch entirely to subtopic archives - archive 3 can be the subtopic for controversy, and we can shuffle around archives 1 and 2 to make each one deal with a different topic (maybe one for questions and one for trivia?) and then add all new archived materials to one of the three.
  2. Shuffle around archives 2 and 3 to make all our archives date archives but then follow the advice to use subtopic archives to "complement" our sequential archives - that is, have combine archives 2 and 3, order it chronologically, put the second half in archive 3, and then put all controversy both in archive 2 or 3 and the supplement subtopic archive.
I'm sorry I didn't see what you meant earlier. I also understand how you feel - I am a perfectionist, too, at times (fine, more than just at times... make it at most times.) — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 00:58, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Future Episode Information 2 & Verifiable Sources

It is my opinion that a review our updating policy should be undertaken (despite the recent timeframe of the last poll) due to the fact there seems to be disagreement. More importantly, I think we must establish our list of verifiable sources, and the conditions with which they apply. However, rather than start a vote, I'd like to see if there is support for this motion. Regardless of the outcome of that proposition, I do believe that we must review, or more importantly solidify what constitutes a verifiable source. To start, obviously any episode summaries on ABC's Lost page, and ABC Media Net. However, I would assert that TV Guide's 8-days prior episode summary should be considered valid.--User:Synflame 18:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We do not need a revote on the policy or on its specifics. The policy is:
  • Information on this page will be limited to official broadcasts, information taken from the ABC website, official LOST websites, official episode descriptions, and interviews with cast/producers/writers/directors.
  • Information extrapolated from commercials or previews, or spoiler websites will NOT be included on this page. This includes unverified episode titles, plot elements or flashback information.
"Official broadcasts" means the official airing of the episode. Information taken from the ABC website includes ABC.com and ABCMediaNet.com. Official LOST websites means all ABC-run websites that are certified as official (e.g., ABC's own website). Official episode descriptions are, again, from their press releases on media net and elsewhere. Interviews includes all public interviews made official by ABC. Commericials and previews include the "coming up this/next week in Lost" on TV. Spoiler websites are sites such as TVGuide.com and columns such as Kristin (at E!) and Ask Ausiello (at TV Guide). The policy is very clear in my opinion. — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 02:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
In general, I'd agree with that summation, however would TVGuide's official week descriptor not classify as an official release, in that it is procured from ABC. Kirsin and Ausiello are certainly rumours and cannot be regarded as fact, however considering the source of tv guide descriptors should it not be considered fair? User: Synflame
  • TV Guide is not an "official" source, per se; they are a secondary source-- which in other areas of Wikipedia would be allowable as a reference, but for the Lost articles, which engender so much speculation, we have voted to exclude. ABC, as the creators and broadcaster of the series, could be considered the primary source, whose information is released for the purposes of promotions. Including TV Guide would open the door to the vast slew of spoilerish-rumors that TV Guide also trafficks in. That's not a negative against them as a site/publication; they often have excellent interviews which may be sourced. In dealing with the speculative cruft that people seem insistent on including, however, it's best to avoid getting sucked into a value judgement of which secondary sources are more credible than others-- so excluding them is appropriate. Further, any future episode descriptions TV Guide publishes would be copyrighted, and thus would be unavailable for use here. —LeFlyman 18:36, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Very aptly worded and eloquent, LeFlyman! I agree with you completely. — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 23:03, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Is it okay to put promo pics of upcoming episodes under the episode?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.74.104 (talk • contribs)
As long as the pictures are obtained from verifiable ABC-resources (i.e., per page policy) and legally (i.e., if it is illegal in your jurisdiction to record TV yet you did anyways, it is illegal), then I see no problem with it. I would, however, wait a few days for a general consensus to emerge.--M@thwiz2020 21:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Future air dates

I don't agree that most of the future episodes all have "January 18, 2006" as airdates. Either correct those, or mark them as "TBA" if the actual airdate has not been verified.—the preceding unsigned comment is by Sbmellen (talk • contribs)

For future reference, the above unsigned comment was left 03:29, 24 December 2005 (UTC). At that time, the episode list looked like this.
Sbmellen, as the future episodes you referred to are not verified, the information was commented so that it did not appear. About 11 hours before your comment, ShadowUltra removed all future episode information. Not needing the comment tags, I removed them 6.5 hours later. However, just a mere 14 minutes before you viewed the article, anonymous user 71.9.56.30 reinserted the future episode information (against official policy), most with the air date of January 18. About 1 hour after you viewed the page, anonymous user 24.250.107.227 reinserted the comment tags, making the future episodes "invisible" so that they can be edited but the edits do not appear to the viewer. Currently, no unverified future episode information exists, commented or not. Thank you for your concern on the issue. — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 19:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

23rd Psalm

The fact that it is a Mr. Eko-centric episode has been indirectly but conclusively verified: episode summary. Check the guest list. Not only are the vast majority of them African, which would be fitting with a Mr. Eko flashback episode, but one is even listed as playing "Young Eko." This alone should be proof enough, and, when combined with the episode's plot focus on Mr. Eko, we can say, with confidence, that it is a Mr. Eko episode. Therefore, I am adding it to the article and the table template. Frag 08:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your rationale. The official policy for this pages states, Information on this page will be limited to official broadcasts, information taken from the ABC website, official LOST websites, official episode descriptions, and interviews with cast/producers/writers/directors. You linked to a site "tv.com" as verification; however, this site does not qualify as the "ABC website, official LOST websites, official episodes descriptions, and interviews with the cast/producers/writers/directors." Now, assuming that this information was in agreement with the policy, which it is not, it still does not explicitly state that Mr. Eko will be featured in the flashbacks. The site you gave says the episode will be "Mr. Eko-centric", however, a quick Google search reveals that this phrase does not appear on any official sites - it is speculation. WP:WWIN, an official Wikipedia policy that applies to all pages, states, Articles that present extrapolation, speculation, and "future history" are original research and therefore inappropriate. Of course, we do and should have articles about notable artistic works, essays, or credible research that embody predictions. Unaired episodes are "future history" and not allowed - that's why only verifiable future info is allowed on this page. The inferences that led to your conclusion (African-American guest stars, a Young Eko, etc.) qualify as "original research" and, consequently, are also not allowed. I thank you for your willingness to contribute to Wikipedia and your accordance with the policies (i.e., you cite a source). However, I reverted your edits due to the fact that we cannot verify the information. — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 19:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Bravo, Mathwiz2020. But let me make the point once again: having a section of the page that contains spaces/captions for future-oriented material is just asking for people to do "original research", include questionable sources, etc. DDG disagrees, I know, but hey, it would save us all a lot of time (not having to revert, in other words) if we just could agree not to include info on the future at all, no matter what the source is. -- PKtm 20:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As DDG said above, he will enforce WP:3RR strictly in the future. (That is, he will revert the page only three times per day and, in an effort to make only three vandalisms a day, block users after three or so vandal edits.) This should help us stop vandalism. However, if you disagree, add a poll section to section one of this talk page in accordance with WP:POLLS. — MATHWIZ2020 TALK | CONTRIBS 20:57, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • The newly expanded description for this episode is chock full of Original Research and rampant speculation; I'm not quite sure where to begin, as reading these supposed summaries is kind of daunting. Could someone please shorten this to the essentials, excising non-necessities like, "...most likely to fill their ranks" and "A humourous scene ensues..."? —LeFlyman 20:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It may be original research and speculation, but I don't think anyone who has seen/owns the episode and/or the screenplay would disagree with any of it. I myself personally enjoy the comprehensive summary, but would not be opposed to someone shortening it to the essentials of the episode.
Kahlfin 21:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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