Talk:Sipahi

confusion

as I see, there is a great confusion in this article. there are two separate cavaltry divisions in Otttoman army and they both carry the same name:"sipahi" first and most important one is the "tımarlı sipahi" which is formed by turkish landowners and consists %80 population of the Ottoman army and there is "kapıkulu sipahisi" which is one of the cavalry units of kapıkulu army, and is much smaller then the first one.in this article; elements from both units was taken to create a imaginary "sipahi" division. there should be two articles, one for tımarlı sipahi(not timariot, there is nothing called timariot in ottoman army, tımarlı sipahi is the correct term and actually tımarly sipahi system is much older than ottoman empire itself; even Osman Gazi Han himself started his career as a tımarlı sipahi)and another one for kapıkulu sipahisi. this confusion is like mixing a 16th century musketeer and a 12th century Templar knight.85.97.9.150 (talk) 16:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Sipahis are the one of the main force of the Ottoman Army. They were trained in Tımar lands, usually equiped with sabers, maces or bows.

All mounted ottoman forces use bow, even sultans(alparslan was a master archer), additionally they equipped with maces, kılıjs(sabers) or axes-helberds, they attack in hand to hand combat after using all missiles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.179.138.58 (talk) 20:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

It's nice to see that the original confusion of the article was mostly gone by dividing Tımarlı Sipahi and Kapıkulu sipahisi sections. But I think best next step will be to divide this article about two separete Ottoman military classes in to two separete articles, and getting rid of that "timariot" article which is not the right term for Tımarlı Sipahis.

Spahis were employed before Mehmed II

Spahis fought for Mehmed's father at the Battle of Varna in 1444.

Actually Tımarlı Sipahis are much much much older than Mehmed II's time. They are even older than Ottoman Empire itself. Seljuk Empire got Sipahis and Ertuğrul Gazi, who is the father of Osman I, was a high ranking Tımarlı Sipahi in the Seljuk Empire. Someone should divide this article in to two articles one for Tımarlı Sipahis and another for Kapıkulu Sipahis. Those are two very diffirent divisions with very different background,history and missions. Only thing thay have in common is they are both called sipahi(which means soldier) and they were both cavalry.

You know what, I think I will fix this article by translating the correct Turkish wiki article to English. I hope someone does not erase my work. 85.97.68.102 (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Then agaişn, I'm almoıst certain that moderators will undo what I wrote; so why bother!

Corrected devshirmeh error

Removed: Many of the Sipahis were actual slaves under the sultan, as collected through the devshirmeh system. By this relationship, the sultan could hope for loyalty and cooperation.

Added: Unlike the Janissaries, Sipahis were not devshirmeh, on the contrary their ranks were only chosen from ethnic Turks who owned land within the Imperial borders.'

The reason for this is entirely historical; the Sipahis were entirely Turk landowners, and being ethnic Turkish was a historic requisite to serve as the elite cavalry of the Empire. They bred their own horses, and often employed soldiers from their own lands, hence their own relatives., --Vox Magna 06:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

This is true, I am a Turk, and within Ottoman sources of old collected within the National Library in Ankara, it is explicitly stated that Sipahis were exclusively Turkmen landowners, and never chosen from devshirme youth. Khoikhoi, please do not edit this further, as you are verifiably wrong.

Vox Magna, I do not doubt your sources, though one that I was able to glean from here states the following:

Thus he (Murad I) began to organize a new military force composed of "slaves of the Porte" (kapıkulları; sing. kapıkulu). These men came to the ruler as his pençik, on one-fifth share, of booty captured from the enemy. ...When these youths came to the sultan, they were educated in the Turkish language, Islam, Arabic, and other characteristics of the Ottoman way. They were then given military training and organized as infantry, called Yeni Çeri ("New Force"), or Janissary corps, or as cavalry, called Sipahis.

Now, let's compare this with the following:

Most of the lands secured for the state ... were divided into timar fiefs and assigned to members of the Sipahi cavalry later in Mehmet's reign to restore at least partly some of the power of the Turkish aristocracy and thus counterbalance the growing power of the devşirme.

What conclusions can we make from this (admittedly based on only one source)? Originally, the sipahi were formed out of the devşirme system, in the time of Murad I; later, however, this practice was altered. This is doubtlessly where your reference to the Turkmens comes in, for which it would be good to give a direct citation/quotation/translation (if possible). Nonetheless, I think it might be fair to incorporate the above references/quotations/citations into the article so as to make the issue clear.

Briefly, the article's original statement, "Many of the Sipahis were actual slaves under the sultan, as collected through the devshirmeh system" seems to be dead wrong insofar as it presents a brief historical period as a period which stretched throughout the Ottoman Empire's history. On the other hand, it can (and perhaps should) be noted that it is also wrong that, in the beginning, there was absolutely no connection between the sipahi and the devşirme system. —Saposcat 07:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh alright. Sorry for (almost) blindly reverting there. I need to get some sleep... —Khoikhoi 07:52, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem; it's understandable. İyi uykular (i.e., "Sleep tight"). —Saposcat 08:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Cool! How do you say "don't let the bed bugs bite"? ;) —Khoikhoi 08:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

There's no specific phrase for it to the best of my knowledge, though I could add Allah rahatlık versin ("May God give you rest"), and that—I think—ought to take care of any bedbug problems you might encounter. —Saposcat 08:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I would hope so. —Khoikhoi 08:29, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your support on the matter. From what I understand Khoitoi doesn't have ill intentions, and I thank him for his understanding as well. I am a history major from University of Virginia, graduated in 2004, who's currently living in Istanbul for research into Turkic languages, peoples and history. Since 2002 I've waited to complete my higher education in order to join the ranks of history academics in Wikipedia. However it seems as if everything that is false about the Turkish people here are somehow backed as truth by some people who use NPOV, biased sources etc. as their propaganda tools.

This upsets me. If Wikipedia is a place where verifiable truths are prevented if it doesn't go in accordance with the current status quo of pro-persian authors, then I want no part in this charade.

Regards, --Vox Magna 07:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I would say don't quit, but rather keep struggling. Remember the old saying Sû uyur düşman uyumaz ("Those around you might sleep, but your enemies won't").

In my own opinion, the whole ethnic argument thing that crops up constantly on Turkish- and Persian- and Azerbaijani-related pages always seems immensely shallow inasmuch as—from what I know of history (though I admit I'm no historian, but rather a student of literature)—in that general region, at that time, boundaries were highly fluid (where they even existed at all, that is) and being crossed with nary a how-d'ye-do all the time, and as a result, all sorts of people mixed and married and all the rest with all sorts of other peoples, making the chances of firmly pointing out anyone's ethnic makeup extremely low to nil in most cases.

Anyhow, I've wandered too far off the topic of Sipahis to justify continuing here; I'll just say: don't give up, but also make sure to safeguard yourself against countering one bias with another one. It's an easy thing to give in to (I'm sure I've done it on occasions), but we should all try to avoid it. —Saposcat 08:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

French Army

Do you guys have any pictures of either early modern or modern French Army spahis? I'd like to see one if so. Additionally, did they have signifigant involvement with the Free French in WWII? V. Joe 06:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Numerous photographs of both historic and modern spahis are available on the Internet. Unfortunately copyright and other restrictions prevent many of them being transferred to the Wikipedia article.

Free France Spahis

You write "One Spahi regiment (1er Regiment de Marche de Spahis Marocains) distinguished itself in service with the Free French during World War II. Garrisoned in Vichy controlled Syria as a mounted cavalry unit"

No 1er Regiment de Spahis Marocains was in Syria and after in north Africa with Vichy. 1er Regiment de Marche de Spahis Marocains have been crated by Free French.

"most of the regiment crossed the frontier into Jordon in June 1940"

In fact, only less than 50 spahi joint the british army during july 1940. My father was one of them.

"and were subsequently reorganised and equipped with armoured cars by the British in Egypt."

In fact they first fight in Erythréa, always riding horses. It was the last charges for french cavalery.

"It subsequently served in Syria"

No they go back to Syria to fight agains Vichy French and agains the 1er Régiment de spahis Marocains from whitch they came. They where less than 100 at this time and 14 where killed.

", Libya"

El Alamein and after Tunisia whith Leclerc

"and during the liberation of France. The regiment was part of the Free French forces that liberated Paris in August 1944."

Free French Force do'nt exist after july 1943. French forces that liberated Paris were a mixt of past Free french, past Vichy French and escaped from France.

If you are interested in : http://www.francaislibres.net/pages/sommaire.php?id=escadron

And my father in this pages http://www.francaislibres.net/pages/sommaire.php?id=spahi

Thank you - corrections made to the section dealing with the 1er Regiment de Marche de Spahis Marocains

:D

real rohirrim:d —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.179.112.166 (talk) 15:07, 17 April 2010 (UTC)