Talk:Celtic reconstructionism
Be kind. This is my first Wikipedia entry and I'm still learning the conventions. I've read the tutorial and everything but this entry is lacking "wikifying" and perhaps more extensive external sources or even more internal sources and connections. I'll try to work on it some more later but any tips or suggestions for improving the language or to make it more "Wiki" consistant would be extremely welcome. Paul Pigman 06:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Alternate Terms
What do you think would be the best way to discuss the alternate terms for Celtic Reconstructionism or branches/variations of CR, such as Celtic Restorationism, Neo-Celtism, Senistrognata, Seandagnatha, Ildiachas/Iol-Diadhachas, Gaelic Traditionalism, and so on. Whateley23 19:30, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Additions
Added another couple of brief paragraphs on the history of CR, and the importance of balancing the scholarly and the mystical. Paul and I worked together on clarifying some bits of his initial entry.
Added a couple more names of sub-trads. Removed GT from the CR sub-trads as, though the GT groups we're aware of initially considered themselves CR, they don't any more.
Today's initial changes are under 63.22.0.227, as I hadn't created an account yet. Kathryn NicDhàna 21:12, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
yeah, i understand that the GTs don't consider themselves CR, but they make use of the same general methodologies (and some still associate closely with predominately CR organizations). since CR can be considered a methodology rather than a religion in itself (though it can also be considered the latter - the term has become somewhat ambiguous), i felt that it was appropriate to include it. Whateley23 22:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Many people do consider CR a religion itself or, perhaps more accurately, an umbrella term covering a number of religions and spiritual traditions. Perhaps we will need to do more work to clarify when we are using "CR" to mean an approach, and when we are using "CR" to mean a religion. As an approach, yes, the polytheistic, split off from CR, GTs use the same methods; but as a community - very different feel and goals. And "Celtic Traditionalist" is another thing as well. Some GTs are closer to CT than CR. Other GTs (the ones with an older claim to the term) are actually Catholics.
Kathryn NicDhàna 04:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
CR vs Neo-druidism
The article would benefit from a discussion of how Celtic Reconstruction differs from Neo-druidism, if in fact it does differ from it. Also "human sacrifice, slavery, and other strongly patriarchal elements" is far from NPOV, so I'm removing the "other". --Angr/tɔk tə mi 18:42, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
i've added a section discussing the differences between neo-druids and crs, though i am not entirely happy with it. this may be due to my dissatisfaction with attempts (including my own) to define by differentiating in the past. i did try to emphasize that there is quite a bit of similarity, but that there are differing objectives. Whateley23 22:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Gaelic Traditionalism?
since there has been no discussion beyond the two comments, i'd like to put the matter up for a vote. feel free to include a short sentence, if you like:
Include Gaelic Traditionalism
- 1. they use entirely CR methods, even if separating themselves as a community and their conclusions vary slightly Whateley23 23:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Do Not Include
- 1. and 2. Paul and Kathryn here. "they use entirely CR methods" - agreed wholeheartedly. The fallacious claims of a couple of GTs that they had inherited family traditions are simply not credible, and at least one of these individuals has now changed his backstory. Sorry this is not NPOV, but we don't know how else to say it. "even if separating themselves as a community" - agreed. "and their conclusions vary slightly" - we would say, at least among the GTs we've encountered, their conclusions and goals vary greatly. I know Kym and Eric agree with this, and I'm pretty sure Erynn does as well (ask them. They're just not on Wikipedia). While we are fine with people knowing that GT is a faction that split off from CR, and that some GTs once called themselves CR, we are not comfortable with being publicly associated with them in any way that would confuse the two traditions as they now exist. One clarification: when we are talking about GT in this statement, we are talking about the faction that split off from the modern, polytheistic, Celtic Reconstructionist movement in the 1990's. The term has also historically been used for a long time by Irish activists in Ireland, usually Catholics. These are a totally different group of "GT"s.
If you insist on mentioning GT in this, please only do so as an historical footnote. We are adamantly opposed to simply listing GT as a "sub-trad" of CR. Paul Pigman and Kathryn NicDhàna
So, it would be reasonable to mention the derivation of GT commuity in the historical development of CR, indicate that they have since diverged, and give GT its own page if it does not already have one. --Nantonos 03:38, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
"Method" vs "Tradition"
Paul Pigman and I have been discussing this. He should have titled this Wikipedia article, like the linked CR Essay, "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism (CR)". The disagreements we are starting to have in this entry seem to me to stem from some of the participants in this process seeing CR as primarily a spiritual tradition, and others as simply a methodology - a type of Celtic Studies with some sort of action coming out of that study. The former is a much more focused, and smaller entity, which a group of us have been working to define for the past fifteen to twenty years. The latter is something much huger than the spiritual movement we are describing in the early versions of this entry, and which seems to encompass anyone doing any sort of reconstruction work, whether or not they share any of the same religious/spiritual values. I don't think these two visions are harmonious enough to coexist indefinitely, and maybe we should split the categories in two in some way. If not, we must tackle these somewhat conflicting (and somewhat overlapping) views soon or I suspect this will be rather confusing for people. Kathryn NicDhàna 05:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm seriously thinking of changing the heading of the entry. What I envisioned this article to represent is much closer to the specificity of "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism" rather than the issues of a broader and more general use of the term "Celtic Reconstruction". I think it would be an excellent idea to split these apart. This would alleviate the confusion obviously inherent between people attempting to merge these differing strains. --Paul Pigman 05:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
i think that it would be best to try to explain that there are two primary concepts which are referred to by the name "Celtic Reconstructionism". i'd like to think that i've already made some effort to disambiguate the two usages a bit in the article as it stands, but i don't think i've been slighting either usage, either. Whateley23 06:26, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
1-26-2006
Hi, this is Iain Mac an tSaoir. All of this was brought to my attention. Maybe I can clarify a little. Gaelic Traditionalism came up independently from CR. In the late 1890's an English woman wrote disparagingly about Irish people not giving up their indigenous ways, and these she termed "Gaelic traditionalists". The term sat fallow from about 1896 until mid-1994. In July 1994, based upon personal experiences with, and encouragement from, Native American Traditionalists, I coined the terms, "Gaelic Traditionalism" (a way of life expressed by living the Gaelic cultural traditions as the culture alone defines that), and "Gaelic Traditionalists" (those who hold steadfast to the cultural traditions as the Gaelic cultures alone define them). I also founded the <a href="http://www.clannada.org">Clannada na Gadelica</a> to attempt at standing up for the historical Celtic and Gaelic traditions as the cultures alone define those, and, bringing the Gaelic Traditions to Gaelic Diasporan peoples.
I was not raised in a Gaeltacht, nor did I have the benefit of a family who had retained the cultural traditions. It was a long hard road to find them, and it was as hard to change from being a typical sassanach into a cultural Gael. In its infancy the CnG did have errant materials. However, the dedication was always to the cultural tradition as the culture alone defines that tradition. Hence, as more was learned those errors were corrected. It took a couple of years but it finely got square. I wish that so many people did not have to witness my growing up into a Gael, but they did. Some few still hold against me things from before I became culturalized. I have apologized for those things and tried to make restitution where such was needed. More yet, most of those with a grudge, hold against me my refusal to let the Clannada na Gadelica be anything other than a place for Gaelic Traditionalism. Probably not so much what I my goal was as how I went about it. But like I said, eventually things got into square.
To be concise, Gaelic Traditionalism is about the Gaelic cultural traditions as the Gaelic cultures define them. There are some who have other ways of addresseing the implementation in daily living, particularly to how to form and maintain communities. Yes, early on there were some CR people involved in the Clannada. But they didn't stick around. It was a difficult time then. As pertains to your entry, no GT is not a subset of CR, because while it came public around the same time, it did so independently, and with a focus on bringing the cultural traditions, as the cultures defines them, to people who want to live them.
I hope this helps.
Iain
Moved and ReNamed the Entry
Well, I've gone ahead and moved the entry, renaming it "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism". I think this solves some of the problems. If there is a desire to create a different entry attempting to encompass a much broader perspective, please do so. By specifying the Paganism component, I think it is more strongly oriented toward the religious and spiritual aspects in addition to the purely methodological approach. This was my original intent in starting this entry. Note that I used only the "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism Essay" as an external source for this entry. This is because I was attempting to describe this particular NeoPagan tradition, not the general use of the term CR.
Because of this new title and more specific focus, I'm going to start revising the entry to more accurately reflect this shift. --Paul Pigman 06:56, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
General structure
This is a good article (as it stands on 11 Sept 2005) but could do with a little more structuring. General Wikipedia practice is to have a short introduction that defines the term and sets it in a context (the first couple of paras do that well) and then headings for the other sections. The remainder of what currently looks like the introcuction moves between historical development and methodology. perhaps these could be pulled into two sections, with headings, History and Methodology? First historical mention, on the other hand, would make more sense as a subhead of history. Other sections which should be added are References (where would CR be without references!) and Bibliography. The typical Wikipedia order is References, Bibliography, External Links. There is already one reference , "Spring, 1992 issue of Harvest Magazine" which should be added in the references section (ideally with a page number). Wikipedia:Manual of Style and in particular Wikipedia:Cite sources may be useful. --Nantonos 04:02, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry, I forgot I hadn't taken care of this. I'll put in Drawing Down the Moon, and dig up the relevant issue of Harvest. Thanks for the suggestions! Kathryn NicDhàna 21:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
- OK, I've added DDTM, the issue of Harvest, and the previous and following issues for a bit of context. I hope my brief annotations are not too out-of-style. Kathryn NicDhàna 23:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
- Looks great, thanks for taking care of this. The annotations are helpful. --Nantonos 15:43, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Suggestions for References
I added a couple of items to the Bibliography, but maybe it would be better to mention them in the context of historical development of CR as well (and thus, move them to References). The 1994 What We Don't Know About the Ancient Celts by Rowan Fairgrove is a much cited work that I believe had an impact on the development of CR, and Alexei's Apple Branch is also much cited (although I don't consider it his best work, by a long way, it undoubtedly had an impact on developments). --Nantonos 04:02, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I have to re-read Rowan's article (btw, typo on the article page - you called her "Robin"), as it's been a long time and I don't remember what I thought of it at the time. Also, though Alexei has become a strong influence in some branches of CR, a number CRs do not consider "Apple Branch" a CR book, per se. Kathryn NicDhàna 06:33, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
- typo fixed (blush) - this is Wikipedia, you can fix typos as you spot them. I'm one of the people that does not particularly rate Apple Branch - in fact it put me off Alexei until I got to know him better on some mailing lists. To me its 'Green-tinged Wicca' though he claims that wicca was not an influence. I can't deny that it is widely recommended and had a big influence, however. What other books would people suggest for refs and bib? --Nantonos 00:52, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree with your "Green-tinged Wicca" opinion. Alexei himself has become a valuable contributor to the Imbas list, and has a lot of influence in that branch of CR, but I think too many CRs are not comfortable calling the book CR (or, at least not without a long list of books besides it). However, do we really want to haggle about what does and doesn't belong in this biblio? We have an extensive biblio with the CR Essay, which was worked out by consensus. We could do a shorter biblio for this entry, but there are only a few of us participating in this Wikipedia entry right now, while the CR Essay was written collectively by representatives of a number of longstanding CR sub-trads. I've been tending to see this entry as a shorter version of that essay, but with room to cover some of the things we didn't go into there for space reasons. Right now any biblio has to be rather long and diverse, as I think Erynn's book is the only one really written about CR practice so far. Others will hopefully be published soon, but aren't in print yet. Kathryn NicDhàna 19:58, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
- "do we really want to haggle" - my apologies for making apparently unwarranted assumptions. I was trying to get this article to be appropriately referenced; my way of prompting such a dialog was to suggest a couple in the hope that other, perhaps better ones, would be suggested also. Since the main contributors seem to be CR practitioners, I did not think that the virtues of backing up statements with references (or the differences between references and bibliography) needed to be spelled out. So, to be more direct, this article has zero references and needs to have some, to conform to a higher standard of quality. --Nantonos 22:54, 13 September 2005 (UTC)