Talk:Deacon

Hi Claudine, Thanks for reorganizing the article. It's much improved. There is one visible difference in the role of the deacon in Orthodox worship that I can see: if a priest is present, the priest (or perhaps the bishop if a bishop is present) will read the Gospel; the deacon might read the Gospel if a priest is not present. The deacon has a more prominent role in leading the people in the Litany, and in censing the icons and people, as well as "other duties as assigned." Perhaps you'll find a way to integrate this in smoothly; I'll see if I can find anything more complete.

Something else this article should probably discuss is the role of deaconesses, both historically and today. There are different views of history, as people sometimes try to interpret the history according to their ideas of what the role of "women in ministry" should be today. Wesley

Actually, the Orthodox service books call for the deacon to read the Gospel even when a priest or bishop is present.

Women in Catholicism

"This rule is not among the infallible dogmas of the church, unlike the rules for priesthood."

While I agree that it is not "infallible dogma" of the Church that women cannot be deacons, I dispute that it is "infallible dogma" that women cannot be priests. Various popes have declared that women are ineligible for Holy Orders, and Pope John Paul II, quoting Pope Paul VI, wrote in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis that the Church lacks the authority to ordain women. However, these statements are not infallible; the only "infallible" statements are the two ex cathedra dogmas: the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. Any pope, including Benedict XVI, can "overturn" these statements by declaring that the Church does in fact have the authority to ordain women.

As a Catholic scholar, I would require very reputible proof before I would accept the claim that the position of the Church on the ordination of women is infallible. Essjay 12:20, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

With the Second Vatican Council's stance on episcopal collegiality and subsequent revisions of canon law, more statements of bishops are considered to be part of the infallible magisterium. When the bishops around the world, in union with the Pope, agree to some sort of doctrinal point, and the Pope accepts this as head of the college, that decision posesses infallibility (see Lumen Gentium §25, can. 337 §2 & can. 742 §2 of the 1983 code). It's not dogma, but it's still infallible. Ex cathedra statements and ecumenical councils define infallible dogma, but are not the only organs of infallibility, at least in the eyes of the Second Vatican Council. Ordinatio sacerdotalis was a supposed exercise of this non-dogmatic infallibility. Pmadrid 00:48, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Married deacons in Orthodoxy

"A married deacon may not be elevated to the priesthood" might be true in the Eastern Rite Catholic churches, but it is absolutely not true in Orthodoxy. Where do you think we get married priests? JHCC 03:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm responsible, mea culpa! When I merged in "permanent deacon," I divided the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/Anglican section into individual sections under that heading. I did a "cut and paste" of various sections, and when I cut and pasted that section, I forgot to remove that clause. I'm sorry, I'm a bad, bad man, and if anyone needs me, I'll be in the corner thinking about what I did. ;-> Essjay · talk 04:06, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Ego te absolvo, in nomine patri, et filii, et spiritu sancti, et wikipedii, amen. Go, and sin on more. JHCC 13:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add some material on deacons

What I would like to add is from a new document by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) entitled the: National Directory for the Formation, Ministry, and life of Permanent Deacons in the United States. It came out in February of 2005 and is copy righted. I am in the process of seeing if I can add a paragraph here and there without paraphrasing. If I do not get permission from the USCCB I would then submit my other additions in my own words with the source cited for community review first. Either way I will submit my proposed additions before posting to the site.

I would like to more clearly define the role of deacon in the article. But this is the first time I have done this, so I need to be sure I am following the guidelines of the Wikipedia community. I made a few minor corrections in capitalization and spelling on the page, but this would be more.

For purposes of full disclosure I am a Roman Catholic Deacon serving in the Archdiocese of Saint Paul & Minneapolis, MN.

These are the sentences I propose to add for now:

Both priests and deacons are complimentary, but subordinate, participants in the apostolic ministry bestowed by Christ upon the apostles. Both minister under the direction of the local bishop. (Paraphrased from a post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation, The Vocation and Mission of the Lay Faithful in the Church and in the World – Christifideles Laici – December 30, 1998 by Pope John Paul II.)

The deacon is ordained for service in both the sanctuary and the market place and is to be a living icon of Christ the Servant within the Church. (Paraphrased from both the National Directory for the Formation, Ministry, and life of Permanent Deacons in the United States and the Catechism of the Catholic Church number 1554)

By virtue of ordination, the Roman Catholic Deacon by ‘word and example’ places himself at the constant service of [his] brothers and sisters. (Paraphrased from the National Directory for the Formation, Ministry, and life of Permanent Deacons in the United States)

Please read the wikipedia rule: be bold. Just make sure that this addition goes into the section related to the correct religion. Also, please keep in mind WP:NPOV, since half of the world population does not think that Christ had any say to listen. Furthermore, please keep in mind that encyclopedia must be clear in its explanations, rather than poetic. Phrasing like "both the sanctuary and the market place" may be confusing. Why "both"? Why not in the wilderness of savages, where the word of God is badly missing? mikka (t) 17:31, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Style (Title)

The article had said that Deacons were called "Reverend Mister", however, in the case of Deacon how is a member of a religious order this is not true. I have tried to clarify this, however, my wording may on be the best.--24.34.138.221 23:14, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Nicea

I removed the following statement:

The First Council of Nicea, in 315, declared that deaconesses were to be counted among the laity (Canon 19).

This is a little sweeping. Canon 19 states:

Concerning the Paulianists who have flown for refuge to the Catholic Church, it has been decreed that they must by all means be rebaptized; and if any of them who in past time have been numbered among their clergy should be found blameless and without reproach, let them be rebaptized and ordained by the Bishop of the Catholic Church; but if the examination should discover them to be unfit, they ought to be deposed. Likewise in the case of their deaconesses, and generally in the case of those who have been enrolled among their clergy, let the same form be observed. And we mean by deaconesses such as have assumed the habit, but who, since they have no imposition of hands, are to be numbered only among the laity. [1]

Since this canon is specifically about the reception of repentant followers of Paul of Samosata, it is not an absolute statement about all deaconesses in the church as a whole. Furthermore, the canon states "in the case of their deaconesses [...], let the same form be observed." This "same form" refers to former clergy "found blameless and without reproach" being "rebaptized and ordained", but "deposed" if "unfit". It is possible that the "no imposition of hands" refers to an unacceptable variation in the Paulianist ordination for deaconesses, and the fathers of the council are clarifying that these women (who would normally be numbered among the laity since they did not have the proper ordination rite) are to be examined, rebaptized, and either ordained or deposed in the same manner as other Paulianists "who have been enrolled among their clergy". JHCC (talk) 15:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)