Talk:Orontid dynasty

Persian origin

We can all collect references to the Orontid Dynasty's Persian origin here, for example: [1], [2], [3]. Also related: [4], [5] and [6]. --AdilBaguirov 03:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

They may have served the Aechamenid Empire in the past, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were ethnic Persian. -- Davo88 03:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Adil the last reference you gave [7] is that like a website for some kind of a gameing website? www.gaminggeeks.org? ROOB323 03:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

ROOB323, what about the other 5 (!) URLs? And this is not even the full list -- just smth I've collected in a few minutes. More can be provided, but why, it's a fact that all knowledgeable people admit and know, including Armenian historians. Meanwhile, Davo88, you are vandalizing the page by making such reverts and irrelevant and unsupported comments (post at least one scholarly article or reference that disputes Orontids Persian origin -- just one article!) -- I will report you for that. --AdilBaguirov 03:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

There are many confounding theories about the origins of the Orontid dynasty, for example, that they were of Greeks [8] or that they were related to Persian rulers... If they really did have foreign origins, nothing changes the fact that they were Armenian nationals. -- Davo88 04:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

First off, your source does not claim Orontids were ethnically Greek. Secondly, that unscholarly source does not equal Encyclopedia Iranica, or any of the other scholarly sources, along with Classical sources, including Armenian sources, which make clear that Orontid Dynasty of Armenia, like Artaxiad Dynasty of Armenia, were of Iranian origin. Third, the term "Armenian nationals" does not apply, as one has to show that there was a unified and distinct Armenian nation some 2,500 years ago at the time of Orontids. Finally, my edit is very clear and states what it states, not saying anything more or less -- hence your or others' POV on Orondits et al is not applicable. You should not engage in revert war's by removing verifiable, scholarly, authoritative and fully-sourced and discussed information from the pages. Put it back the very same way you removed it. --AdilBaguirov 06:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes there was. It may be unconceivable for you, but the region as a whole was called Armenia by then, as stated by Greek writers and also in the Behistun inscriptions. These facts are very clear and concrete, I don't even need to discuss them. Besides, your sources don't claim that the Orontids were ethnic Persians, while they may have been loosely related to the Aechamenid royal family. -- Davo88 13:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

1) Whether any given region was/is called Armenia is completely irrelevant, as we are discussing the ethnic origins of Orontids (and Artaxiads and Arsacids).

2) Perhaps you overlooked: "The Orontid kings of Armenia were descended from the Achaemenid line" [9]. Then there is here: [10] "The Royal Hunt in Eurasian History", by Thomas T. Allsen, Univ of Pennsylvania Press, 2006, p. 37: "The Orontid dynasty of Armenia (ca. 401-200), whose ruling house was of Achaemenid origin...". Also, "This Orontes was married about 401 B.C. to the Princess Rhodogune, daughter of the Persian Great King Artaxerxes II." The Cambridge History of Iran By Ehsan Yarshater, Cambridge University Press, 1983, p. 506.

Also, here [11] "Artasyras, the King’s Eye, brought the news of Prince Cyrus' death to Artaxerxes II, and Artasyras's son Orontes who had been present (and perhaps distinguished himself) at the Battle of Kounaxa and was given Rhodogunde the daughter of Artaxerxes II and made Satrap of Armenia. In the late 380s after Persia had suffered serious reverses in Egypt, Orontes was recalled from Armenia to head the Persian army while Tiribazes commanded at sea. They quarreled and their case went before a court of four Persian nobles who found for Tiribazes with Orontes being disgraced and dismissed from his position as Satrap of Armenia. In the 360s BCE several of the Persian Satraps revolted and chose Orontes as their leader. However he betrayed them to the King and made peace with General Ochus. Orontes was then reappointed as Satrap of Armenia and became the founder of the autonomous Armenian Orontid dynasty." --AdilBaguirov 10:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

They had strong ties to the Acheamenid Dynasty as the article clearly states several times. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Besides that, they were ethnically Persian, as is also stated numerous times. --AdilBaguirov 20:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

No they were not, they just intermarried with them. Xenophon writes about them during the time of the Medes, so does Movses Khorenatsi. They had names of Indo-Aryan origin, none of which were Persian.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 20:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes they were Persian, scholarly sources are clear about it -- instead of being disruptive, either accept this fact or provide a scholarly rebuttal, that would prove your POV. Until then, the reference must stay. --AdilBaguirov 06:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Extensive evidence has been presented -- Orontids were ethnically Persian. --adil 07:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It's been almost a year Adil! Give up already. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 12:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

a year since you supress evidence of Persian origin of the Orontids. You should not do that, accept the fact as all scholars have. --adil 17:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

See above.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Likewise, you too, note all the facts which you cannot dispute -- Orontids were Persian. --adil 07:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

User Hakob acts on behalf of his friends and aggressively reverts pages that don't suit his POV, removing sourced material. Unacceptable. --adil 07:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't assume what another users intentions are. Stop toying with these articles and open an RFC if you must.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 03:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

you should open an RFC if any of my sources unqualify for Wikipedia's Verifiability clause. Don't supress the info. My sources are verifiable, academic and authoritative. --adil 05:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I have placed back the two references about the Persian origin of the dynasty, from very authoritative, verifiable and third-party sources. Meanwhile, I did preserve the Armenian langauge spelling of the word. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AdilBaguirov (talk • contribs) 16:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Now that Hakob taken over Eupator's duties to blindly revert and supress info, I've placed (yet again) back the verifiable and academic references about the Persian origin of the dynasty. --adil 05:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The context written on this page is self-explanatory your intentions are not to help articles but remove historical information on certain types of articles which should be stopped. Artaxiad 02:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk about your intentions instead -- you are the one who contradicts Wiki rules and removes verifiable, academic info. You should not do that. --adil 03:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Theres enough references in general your introducing new theories. Artaxiad 03:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Like I've said on the Tigranes the Great article, Adil, all of this evidence is based on your original research and personal interpretations. I'm reverting this article to its earlier version. -- Aivazovsky 16:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

What is the source of this Mehan listed as ruling from 321 to 317 BC? Also from the books I've read there seems to be some dispute wether Neoptolemus was actually appointed satrap or was just the general entrusted with subjugating the area. Fornadan (t) 12:36, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

the origin of the dynasty

apperently its origin is Greek or Persian ot Armenian.193.140.194.102 (talk) 21:44, 26 March 2011 (UTC) Bring some sources please. So can I say, that Urartu population was extremely Armenian, but I should give sources to prove that.