Talk:Butlerian Jihad
I Agree.
I'm currently in the process of rereading the original series and I agree that the article should contain some mention of the differences between FH and B&K's jihads. Though he left the nature of the jihad vague, it seemed to be more a cultural and spiritual revolt rather than a war against machine overlords. Also, given the general nature of the Dune series and their focus on humanity, the notion that the Butlerian Jihad was a revolt against machine powers doesn't really fit. Several of the primary themes throughout the Dune series focus on human nature, so it would only be logical to assume that Frank Herbert's vision of a cultural and mental revolution does not fit with B&K's idea of a Terminator-like war.
User: LetoAtreides 11:24 EST, 30 January 2006
Difference between Frank and Brian/Kevin Jihads.
I have reverted my edits which claim that FH and B&K's jihads are different. I believe whoever deleted them think that FH was so vague about it that B&K's interpretation 'fall under' his description and thus do not contradict him. This is where I disagree - FH does not give many facts (and I do not rely on the Dune Encyclopedia for them) but that there are several hints to what he meant. These are: Characters speak of machines as perversions and something that can 'trap' you into a sense of complacancy - not as a danger to your life and liberty. It is called a jihad, not a revolt or anything else - jihad denotes something religious, connotations which a Terminator-like war in space does not evoke. 'Thou shalt not disfigure the soul' is the single commandment the OC bible creators first came up with, 'thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind' fits into this i believe (another reason for believing the revolt was religious in nature).
I collected some quotes from FH's novels below, the word robot or cyborg hardly ever appears in the books - and nowhere is there any hint of men being literal slaves to machines not nor that the war took place with machines on one side and humans on the other. I am not claiming that the 'defenders' against the jihad did not use machines or even autonomous robots against the revolters - that is a possibility for sure. I am claiming that the jihad started for religious and philosophical reasons and was fueled by bigotry and hatred toward machines, probably fear that mankind was becoming unnecessary.
These are the reasons I reverted my edits - B&K have a much simpler and IMHO less interesting backstory than Herbert and they are not compatible. It is not the job of wikipedia to support B&K's claim that they are the literary heirs to FH, nor that they write what he would have written - they should be treated with the same respect as any fan-fic author until such time as they show the notes they claim to have.
"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."
Then came the Butlerian Jihad -- two generations of chaos. The god of machine-logic was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised: "Man may not be replaced."
JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."
(About a fencin machine - which is the closest thing to a robot in the Dune universe). Its possession was the shibboleth of this age, but it carried also the taint of old immorality. Once, they'd been guided by an artificial intelligence, computer brains. The Butlerian Jihad had ended that, but it hadn't ended the aura of aristocratic vice which enclosed such things.
The human-computer replaced the mechanical devices destroyed by the Butlerian Jihad. Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind! But Alia longed now for a compliant machine. They could not have suffered from Idaho's limitations. You could never distrust a machine. (So trusting the machine was never the problem).
One moment he felt himself setting forth on the Butlerian Jihad, eager to destroy any machine which simulated human awareness. That had to be the past -- over and done with. Yet his senses hurtled through the experience, absorbing the most minute details. He heard a minister-companion speaking from a pulpit: "We must negate the machines-that-think. Humans must set their own guidelines. This is not something machines can do. Reasoning depends upon programming, not on hardware, and we are the ultimate program!"
He heard the voice clearly, knew his surroundings -- a vast wooden hall with dark windows. Light came from sputtering flames. And his minister-companion said: "Our Jihad is a 'dump program.' We dump the things which destroy us as humans!"
(Leto II remebering genetically).
They made their devices in the image of the mind the very thing which had ignited the Jihad's destruction and slaughter. (So the Jihad is started because of this 'image of the mind', not because of what that image then did).
"The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines," Leto said. "Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed." (Leto II again).
Odrade was suddenly aware she had touched on the force that had powered the Butlerian Jihad - mob motivation. (People do not need motivation for survival, they need it to start a bloody, ideological revolt). Lundse 13:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
- I have added sections in the Frank Herbert talk page referring to this, and people interested in this matter might want to head over there and join the discussion. Lundse 09:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
False statement
"The original Dune novel states that the Jihad ended in human victory at the Battle of Corrin. The leader of the Jihad then renamed his royal house "House Corrino", and declared himself Emperor of the Known Universe. The Emperors of the Empire of a Million Worlds were all of House Corrino for the next 10,000 years, until the events of Dune and the ascension of Paul Atreides."
There are two false statements in this sentence: neither was the winner of the Corrin-battle Sheuset ecevit the leader of Butlers Djihad nor were all emperors in the following 10000 years of Corrino descendance. There would also be Harkonnen Emperors and those did not rank among the least of the Padischahs! At a certain time who became new emperor would be decided by the Sardaukar who showed the tendency to install their favourite members of the court on the throne. The first padischah sheuset I. himself had nothing to do with Butlers Djihad as is deoicted here. In FH´s original timeline which was explained in detail in the dune encyclopedia Sheuset was a powerful local leader who united the warrior tribes of the Sardaukar on Salusa Secundus under his command. When Salusa was "discovered" by one of the great houses (this was already after Butlers Djihad) they recognised the deadly fighting prowess of the Sardaukar and intended to use them as mercenaries. But the Sardaukar (noew equipped with spaceships) conquerec and destroyed their "discoverers" and afterwards started a conquest of the whole known universe. The great houses felt they were in danger and united their forces to defeat sheusets sardaukar but failed because sardaukar proved to be invincible in close combat. The final battle of the Conquest was the battle of Corrin. After the battle Sheuset was declared to be emperor.He set the ruling laws for the next 10000 years, most notably the great convention and faufeluchs-the imperial caste system. The Battle of corrin was not a battle of Butlers Djihad! It took place long after.