Talk:Pariah state

References

I'd like to see references for each country listed as a pariah state. I put the list there just off the top of my head, so it's not exhaustive. I also might not find sources for some countries, so those can come off. But help would be appreciated. Thanks! Dchall1 (talk) 05:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Many of the sources listed are merely paragraphs which accuse a specific nation as being a "Pariah State". Take Haiti for example. The article which is cited merely called it a "pariah from the offset" which refers to the fact that there was a slave rebellion which the slave trading nations did not like. Simply making a claim in a paragraph does not make it a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.126.52 (talk) 15:55, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The rise and decline of rogue states

From The Rise and Decline of Rogue States:

Midway through the Cold War, the global community ostracized a handful of states by questioning their national legitimacy and by isolating them from normal diplomatic integration. Beset with anxiety about their survival, these states developed—or at least hinted at developing—nuclear weapons. As a result, the developed world branded them pariah states. Israel, South Africa, South Korea and Taiwan were lumped into this category despite their varying political and economic systems.

This seems to be the reason Israel is on the list. Not a good reason if you ask me. Anyway, in order to hide the clear bias here, I've added South Korea and Taiwan to the list and added a reference for South Africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.172.118.255 (talk) 08:12, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

United States of America

I removed the United States of America from the list because the reference link does no longer work. In my personal opinion, even if one strongly disagrees with official US policies (i.e. War on Terror, War on Drugs, etc.), listing the US as a "pariah state" is pushing it a bit. Therefore, please add reliable sources that the US has been considered one before re-instating it on this list.

Removed list item and non-working reference:

• United States of America

HagenUK (talk) 13:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

This is a situation where we should avoid the Wikipedia tendancy for lists to expand ad infinitum. The Israel citation didn't work either, so I removed it, too. --24.110.218.195 (talk) 02:56, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not a user but Uganda please come on the link is from 2000 when Yoweri Musevani was just taking over. The list also should be expanded some what —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.105.67.58 (talk) 03:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I also once again removed the United States entry. Whoever is determined to include it as a "Pariah State" needs to find a better source document than a single paragraph in the L.A. Times, written 6 years ago by a practically unknown author, which actualy looks like only a "Letter To The Editor" type comment. That "source" itself is written only in a speculative mode, rather than just flat-out saying the U.S. belongs to that group. If whomever is doing this truly believes the U.S. belongs in this group, then I'm 100% sure they can also find several much more detailed sources which agree with them. If that can't be done, then their argument is a VERY weak one, & pretty much just a perfect example of individual POV, rather than widely accepted fact. That type of speculation isn't suppose to be included in Wiki, per it's own guidelines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.159.69.146 (talk) 03:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

The United States, at least in previous (recent) years has met most of the definitions of a rogue state: One's position as a world power doesnt change this, it just changes the reaction. Though physical difficulties prevent me fromlooking for sources at this moment, I can state without reserve that during 2000-2008, the US removed itself from several treatiest about nuclear armaments; chief among them led to the attempts to establish "Missile Shield" defenses in states near the Russian border. All such missile defense systems are not considerd good things, and its aggressive development and political ramifactions tend to support it. However! I agree that before any of this hits the main page, it should be discussed and sourced heavily. Though I think it DOES meet the definition, it would be foolish to think that no one might try to put the US into categories that are either temporary, poorly understood, or just plain make it look bad when it shouldnt. 74.128.56.194 (talk) 13:44, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the US from the list. The "source" listed is this article: http://articles.latimes.com/2004/oct/26/opinion/le-kunin26.1

Which reads as follows: "I was saddened to read Ian Buruma's commentary on the U.S., "Lost Love: Americophilia Fades Away" (Oct. 25). It strikes me that there is an interesting confluence of opinion -- I think nearly everyone will agree that there are two great pariah states. But to too many, those states are not North Korea and Sudan, but the U.S. and Israel. It's good occasionally to remember that it is possible to gain the whole world and lose one's soul.

Carolyn Kunin

Pasadena"

Please feel free to add the US to the list when a credible article can be cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.126.52 (talk) 04:45, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the US from the list of former pariah states. The previous citation was a quote from John Kerry while he was a candidate for President of the United States. His statement is rhetorical, and represents a personal opinion; he is not qualified to define the US as a pariah state. Please find a credible source if the US is to be listed in this section. BosDruid (talk) 22:33, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I simply provided a reference that stated the US was a pariah state. And why would one need to be qualified to make this statement? I think there needs to be an agreement on what can or cannot be used as a reference, the article isnt clear on this. Vuvuzela2010 (talk) 00:52, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I should have offered another argument for removal of the US in addition to the Kerry argument. We've defined "pariah state" in the first paragraph, and the US clearly does not fit this definition - despite the fact that world opinion of US policy has not always been positive. So, to debate whether the US should be listed is not really a question of what reference to use (I contend that Kerry's opinionated statement is still not valid), but a question of how we choose to define "pariah state" in this article. If we want to list the US here, we need to change the definition.BosDruid (talk) 20:25, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Pre-term states

Should states like Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan appear in this article, despite existing before the appearance of the term "pariah state"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Frederick (talk • contribs) 13:44, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Imperial Japan received very little international pressure or strong sanctions in the lead up to WWII. The limitations of the treaty of Versailles from WWI might count for Nazi Germany but I feel the case is still rather weak.--signed by anonymous, e 28 OCT 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.244.85.232 (talk) 14:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Beside the point - we can't list states we think are or were pariahs - we cite sources that do. Concerning Nazi Germany the tragedy lies therein that almost till the end every state played along as if everything was "normal". Thus no, it was surely not considered a pariah. --Echosmoke (talk) 17:42, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Soverign state within the borders of another soverign state?

Im just wondering if these should be included as pariah states? 74.128.56.194 (talk) 13:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Past and Present

I think the list on this article should be split into present-day pariah states and past pariah states. There's no distinction now, I highly doubt countries such as South Korea or Argentina are considered pariahs today. Israel and US highly controversial but should be kept for neutrality's sake, provided sources can be found. Someone who knows more about this than I do should reorganize the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.234.219.54 (talk) 23:16, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Albania?

How about Albania under Enver Hoxha? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.100.56 (talk) 20:36, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Bias

I think the article is U.S.A biased. The U.N has never sanctioned many of the U.S.A wars yet will U.S.A will listed as a pariah? Things need to reviewed on their merit not from a political bias. For example if pariah were determined by nations which have committed genocide either of a foreign or domestic nature then 99% of the map would be colored yet defined "A pariah state is one whose conduct is considered to be out of line with international norms of behavior" which genocide certainly is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommahawk (talk • contribs) 04:22, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Unrecognised States

There are a few states with limited recognition that are more often than not, considered to be pariah states, should they be added? Vuvuzela2010 (talk) 04:07, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

A source that names Abkhazia as a pariah:

Abkhazia: A promising pariah on the Black Sea - Editorials & Commentary - International Herald Tribune

Vuvuzela2010 (talk) 04:12, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Transnistria:

The Sheriff of the Wild East - The Slavic Football Union

Vuvuzela2010 (talk) 04:15, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Israel

The two sources for Israel are some UK MP and a Sri Lankan MP. Is this article supposed to be about states considered pariahs by low level politicians or what? It needs clarification. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 21 Tishrei 5772 22:54, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

It appears the Sri Lankan one has been removed now. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 24 Tishrei 5772 03:07, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't need any clarification - the criteria is spelled out quite clearly in the lead. What it needs is less POV-pushing. Jeff Song (talk) 01:12, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Israel's supporters keep removing Israel from the list making flimsy arguments which are not applied to other countries on the list. You either deal with all countries equally, and in this case the US and Israel would be surely included since they are considered as Pariah states not just by most people outside of their own populations, but by many states around the globe. Israel is at least described as Pariah by all the Arab states and many non-western countries. Even in western countries and in Israel itself, it was decribed as such by many people and politicians at various times. So, either be fair to all or fair to none, but don't apply double standards. Also, if you enlarge the map in the article, you will see that Israel is coloured as current. 173.74.22.141 (talk) 18:45, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

You are clearly unfamiliar with our WP:RS policy if you are using the Pravda as a source.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

It is exactly the same type of "Reliable" sources as used for other countries referenced in this list, if not more so. Check other sources and let me know if they are reliable at all, but they are added, nevertheless, to advance a certain view. Most have only one reference and a dubious one at that. If you make a list of no value other than to advance a biased POV then expect to be judged by the same standards. Pretty soon I'll be checking and adding the US and other Western countries too when I find "reliable" sources, which are not in shortage, and time.173.74.22.141 (talk) 02:58, 27 March 2012 (UTC)