Talk:Solomon's Temple

Merge

Seems like this article and Temple in Jerusalem should be merged. Jdavidb 17:03, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, it should not be merged as the article on the Temple in Jerusalem is a kind of disambiguation page that links to other articles on the First Temple which was Solomon's Temple, the Second Temple that was built 70 years after the first one was destroyed, and the improved Herod's Temple, (and finally the brief discussion about the Third Temple (no article on this, yet).) IZAK 08:50, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The {} sign/s

One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:43, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Legendary material recently inserted

An anonymous editor recently inserted the following material:

Tradition holds that giant hairy demons helped to build the Great Temple of Solomon. Their great strength was useful in the carrying of the heavy stone blocks. God gave Solomon a holy ring to control the demons with. The symbol on the ring was the Star of David, a holy seal.

The guards of the Great Temple later became the Knights Templar, a group closely associated with the Freemasons. In 1307 A.D., Philip IV of France suppresses Knights Templar for witchcraft and heresies, citing their pentagram symbol (actually the Star of David) as one of the 'proofs' of ties to demons. The Freemasons and Knights Templar went on to build thousands of churches and hid holy artifacts in them, reputedly the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail, and others.

Later, the similar pentagram symbol was used by Satanic cults in attempts to summon demons.

I've removed it for now, pending some more information about it. What are the sources for it? Jayjg 15:56, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It would be interesting to have a section on fables regarding the building of the temple by demons. These can be found for example in Myth and Legends: Ancient Israel by Angelo S. Rappoport (a difficult read) and I'm sure also in Legends of the Jews by Louis Ginzberg. Basically culled from various Midrashic works. There are also Islamic sources with related or variant fables about Solomon and the demons. Kuratowski's Ghost 01:52, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Legendary material recently inserted, pt. 2

Bismillahir Rahman ir Rahim

I recommend considering removal of the section entitled "Solomon's Reign" on the same basis. A group of "master-builders" were employed to erect "masonry" so that the foundation would be level??? Puleeez... Follow the link about Hiram I also. I'm not removing it because I don't feel like I have a neutral POV myself, but something to consider...

Discussion requested

I have noticed that there has been a major move to unify a number of articles on matters relating to the history of the Hebrew peoples by automatically and without discussion or qualification or room for dissenting views to reclassify everything so that the word "Hebrew" is substituted for the word "Jew" or "Jewish". This revisionism is a form of nunc pro tunc, meaning in legal and Orwellian terminology "now for then" where the history of yesterday vanishes with the stroke of a pen or computer key. I personally believe that this is a dishonest approach to history by treating it as propaganda to advance a particular viewpoint which is not shared by all people and in this case not by all Jewish people or scholars who are Jews. I have stated similar views elsewhere on a more controversial topic, but I believe that it can be discussed here since the question of whether the Temple existed is not under debate at all, that is accepted as proven fact. Therefore I would like to read a discussion on this very narrow issue of whether everything can now be classified as "Jewish" when "Hebrew" is the accurate discription. I specifically draw attention to the very first opening line on the article page. Please, let us stick to the facts and not allow allow passions to enter this discussion. Thank you. MPLX/MH 15:27, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Solomon was from the tribe of Judah, his Temple was in the territory of Judah. Citizens of Judah were Jews, by definition. Jayjg | (Talk) 16:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"... his Temple was in the territory of Judah. Citizens of Judah were Jews, by definition." How is that possible when the Kingdom of Judah had yet to be created? MPLX/MH 18:07, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Even in the united Kingdom of Israel the tribe of Judah had a specific territory, and the Temple was located exclusively in the Kingdom of Judah for 400 years or so. Jayjg | (Talk) 18:21, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I hope you see where this is going ... "Even in the united Kingdom of Israel the tribe of Judah had a specific territory, and the Temple was located exclusively in the Kingdom of Judah for 400 years or so." So it was the JEWISH Temple according to your interpretation because "... the tribe of Judah had a specific territory, and the Temple was located exclusively in the Kingdom of Judah for 400 years or so. So how about EVERYONE ELSE? Didn't they count? They were collectively HEBREWS who had been called Israelites by nationality. Anyway you slice it this current rebranding is a latter day nunc pro tunc. MPLX/MH 23:27, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Jew originally meant "citizen of Judah". That's where the Temple was built, and who mostly used it for its entire existence. Jayjg | (Talk) 02:20, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I repeat the following line from the article itself: "In the beginning of his reign, King Solomon of the united Kingdom of Israel ..." I believe that addresses the very point that I am trying to make and I also believe that it makes it plain that all of the statements about Judah are therefore besides the point. MPLX/MH 07:13, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but I'm not getting your point. It was briefly the Temple of all Israelites, and then for hundreds of years the Temple of the Jews. Where do Hebrews come into it? Jayjg | (Talk) 21:41, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Reporting actual dates about when temple construction and other events referred to in the article occurred would be very helpful.

Attempted rebuilding, fourth century

An anon has edited the article on Julian the Apostate to include reference to an attempt to rebuild the Temple:

In 363 Julian, on his way to engage Persia, stopped at the ruins of Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem. In keeping with his effort to foster religions other than Christianity, Julian ordered the Temple rebuilt. A personal friend of his, Ammianus Marcellinus, wrote this about the effort:

Julian thought to rebuild at an extravagant expense the proud Temple once at Jerusalem, and committed this task to Alypius of Antioch. Alypius set vigorously to work, and was seconded by the governor of the province; when fearful balls of fire, breaking out near the foundations, continued their attacks, till the workmen, after repeated scorchings, could, approach no more: and he gave up the attempt.

However, many scholars believe it was an earthquake, common in the region, that ended the attempt to rebuild the Temple.

The anon has provided no source for the quotation from Ammianus Marcellinus or for any of the other material. I mention it here in the hope that someone knowledgeable about Solomon's Temple can correct any errors or provide a reference. JamesMLane 17:40, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Here are two interesting sources which give a somewhat different picture. [1] [2] Jayjg ^(talk) 18:52, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is Bible Study not History

A page referencing bible verses as references can only be bible study or literary criticism, NOT HISTORY.

This topic needs to be subtitled "Bible Study" or rewritten to say something on the order of "little is known about the actual history of Solomon's temple, although tradition, transmitted primarily though biblical references, asserts that ...

Again, there isn't anything wrong with an article that is a bible study or a religious article. But religious tradition masquerading as history is inappropriate.

True, reading the Biblical text alone will not produce a good article, but it has some value when used in conjunction with other methods of inquiry, especially archaeology and comparative religion. Together these can form a reasonable foundation for a set of educated guesses about the nature and appearance of the temple. I've tried to do this properly, attributing the purely Biblical stuff where appropriate and bringing in the other analyses where I can. —E. Underwood 23:17, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, the opinion that it's mostly or completely made up certainly exists. I should read Israel Finkelstein's books on the archaeology of ancient Israel and see what he has to say about the Temple. —E. Underwood 03:36, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Finkelstein is very clear on this: There is no archeological trace of monumental architecture in the period of Salomo. The alleged Salomonic stables in Megiddo are Omridic. Collegavanerik 07:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Date of destruction

No mention in this article; History of ancient Israel and Judah says 587 BC and is specific that it was the 9th of Av; I know the latter is tradition (Tisha B'Av); if the year is correct, that should be in this article, no? -- Jmabel | Talk 08:22, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

Everyking's edit at my request

"Everyking (restore material cut anonymously without explanation. If you think this section is wrong, please take it to talk)". This edit by Everyking is at my request, and the comment is mine. My browser is having problems handling this page. Please, address me, not Everyking, on any issues about this edit.

Cut from article

I just wanted to point out that the following material was recently cut from the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:19, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

When the Temple was constructed it was, together with Solomon's palace, by far the most splendid pile of buildings that the Hebrews had ever seen. The influence of environment may be seen in the description of Solomon's Temple. With the lapse of time Israel's fortunes declined, and the age of Solomon seemed even more glorious in comparison with later obviously decadent periods; and this increased the tendency to exaggerate the splendor of the Temple. Moreover, religious reforms made some of the arrangements of the Temple seem unorthodox, and various scribes may have amplified its description; as they did not always have the same point of view, present accounts are confused to a degree. One of the exaggerations of later times probably produced all those statements which declare that the inner parts of the Temple and all its implements were overlaid with gold.

As a result of editorial reworking of the description, the narrative in Kings contains no account of the great brazen altar which stood before the Temple. Ex. 20:24 et seq. provided that an altar might be made of earth or unhewn stone; and as it offended a later age to think that Solomon made an altar of bronze, its description was removed from 1 Kings 6. Nevertheless it is recorded elsewhere (1 Kings 8:64; 2 Kings 16:14) that it was a part of the furniture of the original Temple. Later scribes, too, are responsible for those statements which represent David as desiring to build the Temple, and as making preparation for it. Had he desired to build it he certainly could have done so. But in his reign the nomadic idea still prevailed, and a tent was thought to be Yhwh's proper dwelling (comp. 2 Sam. 6:6). Later generations, to whom the Temple seemed a necessity, could not understand why so venerated a man as David did not build it; hence these statements.

This paragraph is largely an anti-Bible POV polemic making numerous unsubstantiated speculations and it also contradicts itself. For example it says that " the narrative in Kings contains no account of the great brazen altar" and then points out that it is in fact mentioned in Kings (1 Kings 8:64; 2 Kings 16:14). All this talking of exaggerated description and changed texts is not substantiated. We don't have enough archaeological evidence to say whether there are exaggerations. Claims of text changes are not supported by any known manuscripts. The paragraph clearly doesn't deserve to be in the article. I tried to rewrite it from a NPOV but once the wild speculation, unsubstantiated claims and contradictions are removed there is nothing left! Kuratowski's Ghost 01:37, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

When was it constructed?

Quick question, when was Solomon's Temple first constructed? Anyone have any dates? Great article by the way DVD+ R/W 06:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Biblical account, or Masonic?

"Amongst them was the master builder Hiram (the son of a Tyrian father and Israelite mother, not to be confused with the king)." This is inserted into what otherwise seems to be a Biblical account. Unless I am mistaken this has no scriptural basis, just the Freemasons' Hiram Abiff. Am I missing something here? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're obviously missing 1 Kings 17:13-15

"king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. He was the son of a widow of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass; and he was filled with wisdom and understanding and skill, to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work. Thus he fashioned the two pillars of brass ......"

Maybe the term master builder is presumptious, what's the best term for someone who works in brass? Kuratowski's Ghost 00:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Other than "a worker in brass"? Could be a "metalsmith", or even a "master metalsmith", but it is certainly not a "master builder", which is more or less a person who came up through the craft and engineering side and to the point of becoming more or less the equivalent of an architect. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Help needed for Identification

I have an Arabic textbook that names a certain Israelite person by the name "Heiqoq" or حیقوق (English transliteration is mine, so it may be inaccurate).

It is said that he was a guardian to the temple of Solomon. He was captured by the babylonians and remained in their prison for some years. After beeing freed by Cyrus, he went to Ecbatana and remained there until he died, and was buried somewhere nearby.

Can anybody help me identify this person?--Zereshk 02:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the science, archeology & neutral evidence?

There's very little factual information in this article. I for one would be interested in how the construction and destruction is dated, not to mention the outlook and materials, and based on which sources. This looks more like biblical-article than encyclopedic article - This is the reason I NPOVed this. - G3, 13:57, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Is there any?

(disclaimer: I don't know beans about ancient history)

I don't think labeling anything that happens to be so ancient as to have very limited corroboration as NPOV is reasonable, though I agree that it shouldn't be presented as indisputable fact; it's simply all we've got.

If we create articles with the contents of all the ancient cuneiform tablets of tax records, do we say that's NPOV? For all we know, the tax collectors lied and were skimming, or the peasants hid assets.

this stuff simply happened too long ago for us to know very much about it; the odds of multiple detailed descriptions of the history of one building surviving undistorted for three thousand years are minute at best; it's impressive enough that we have one description.

it might make sense to adopt a standard for articles based on or drawn from ancient texts to have a section on corroborating evidence, and some kind of label or tag indicating the limited nature of source material. I just don't think NPOV quite covers it, though; it's just single source data, or, if you like, Single POV.