Talk:Oghuz Turks
Where Oghuz Turks live today
I removed Germany, Austria, Belgium, Great Britain, etc. from the list of countries with Oghuz Turk population. The way it was written before would puzzle those who are not familiar with this part of history, and they might think that the Nazis spared the Turks from their concentration camps during WW2! I believe this part of the article should list the countries of traditional settlement of the Oghuz Turks, and not the places of Turkish diaspora after WW2! Also, I have never heard of a country called Gagavuz. Instead, I put Moldova. Also, there is no longer Yugoslavia, I put Serbia instead, there are a small number of ethnic Turks in Serbia, mostly refugees from Kosovo who fled from the Albanian ethnic violence there. As far as I know, no Turks live in Montenegro (the Montenegrins were renowned for their "love" for the Turks and the Muslims, and even in Ottoman times no Turks dared to live in that tiny mountainous country). Oh, now I remember that I forgot Romania, there is an ethnic Turkish minority in Romanian Dobruja!
"are regarded as one of the major branches" manages to combine peacock words with the passive of non-attribution to offer an information-free puff. Wetman 20:09, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry?
I think the correct comment is:{{cleanup-copyedit}}Gareth Hughes 02:18, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Redundancy
I removed this paragraph from the article:
Throughout history, the Oghuz Turks have founded different nations that have developed political and geographical identities of their own, yet share Oghuz ancestry, culture, history, language and literature. The modern Turkic nations of Azerbaijanis, Turks of Turkey and Turkmen are the three most historical of Oguz Turk peoples.
The second paragraph of the article reads:
The Oghuz Turks are the ancestors of today's western Turks whose numbers are more than 100 million and inhabit areas in western Asia and eastern Europe: Azerbaijanis of the Republic of Azerbaijan and the South Azerbaijan region of Iran, Turks of Turkey and Cyprus, Turkmens of Turkmenistan and northeastern Iran, Qashqay and Khurasani Turks of Iran, Balkan Turks of Greece, Bulgaria and the former Yugoslavia as well as Gauguz (Gokoguz) Turks of Moldova.
Which has all the same information in it already. siafu 16:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Vprotect
What is the reason for the vprotect template? siafu 23:58, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- This page has been targetted by a particularly pernicious vandal, who requires a great deal of administrator attention to deal with. In the flurry of page protections and blocks, it is difficult to keep the actual page protection status in sync with the presence of a template indicating the block status. Nohat 00:39, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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Origin of the Safavids
" ... If one looks at the record of Iranian historians during the same period, the scene is similar: a rather barren landscape relieved by a few lofty peaks. In 1927-8 Ahmad Kasravi led the way with the publication of three seminal articles entitled Nizhad va Tabar-i Safaviyya (`The genealogy of the Safavids'); Safaviyya sayyid nabuda and (`The Safavids were not sayyids'); and Baz ham Safaviyya (`The Safavids again')[17]. Kasravi disputed the validity of the `official' Safavid genealogy contained in the Safvat al-Safa and followed by most later Safavid chronicles[18], and argued convincingly that the ancestors of Shaykh Safi al-Din, who founded the Safavid Order (tariqa), were indigenous inhabitants of Iran (az bumiyan-i bastan-i iran budan) and were of pure Aryan stock (juz nizhad-i aryani nadashta and). Today, the consensus among Safavid historians is that the Safavid family hailed from Persian Kurdistan. Kasravi's important articles were published in the journal Ayandeh, which was not readily available in the West, and, despite the fact that they were republished as a pamphlet in 1944, in an expanded and revised form, they unfortunately continued to be overlooked by many historians. These included the Turkish scholar Zeki Velidi Togan who, working on the oldest available MSS. of the Safvat al-Safa, independently reached many of the same conclusions reached by Kasravi thirty years earlier[19]. At the same time, Togan tried to lay to rest the persistent claim by Turkish historians that Shah Isma'il I was a Turk, but this claim resurfaced from time to time in the writings of Turcophiles, such as David Ayalon[20], and was usually based on the fact that Isma'il spoke the Azari dialect of Turkish, which Toynbee calls one of "the vulgar tongues of camp and court"[21], and had written poems in Azari under the pen-name of Khata'i. ..." Roger M. Savory, Professor Emeritus University of Toronto (one of the authors of the "Encyclopaedia Iranica")
As you can read in the text above, the Safavids were not Turkish, and thus, they cannot be considered "Oghuz" ... -Tajik 00:11, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
- Safavids, in Turkish Safevi, weren't Oghuz Turks. Perhaps, Ismail was a Turk, but not Oghuz. I agree with Tajik.
- Ismail I article says that he is the grandson of Akkoyunlu (Turkoman, Oguz) leader Uzun Hasan. His mother is Uzun Hasan's daughter Halima Begum, his father's side are all Turkish speaking Azeris (http://bss.sfsu.edu/behrooz/Safavid.htm). I would think that he is pretty much Oguz not that it matters that much. AverageTurkishJoe 03:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- According to the Encyclopaedia Iranica, the most authoritive work on Iranian history, the Safavids were an ethnic Iranian clan from Azerbaijan, probably of Kurdish origin. It is well known that Ismail's mother was half-Turkmen (while his mother's mother was Greek), but the "ethnic group" of a dynasty is not defined by female lines. Sheikh Safi al-Din Eshaq Ardabeli was an Iranian-speaking Kurd from Azerbaijan who used to write poems in old-Azerbaijani (an Iranian language; not to be confused with the modern Turkic language known as "Azeri") and in Persian. The Safavids considered themselvs "Iranians" and revived nationalist Iranian movements, closely connected to the new Shia belief in Iran. Here are the sources from the Encyclopaedia Iranica:
- Book 1, p. 240, line 6 (left) - my comments are in parentheses --> [...]:
- " ... Azari [= Middle-Iranian language spoken in Azerbaijan before the Turkic conquest] lost ground [in Azerbaijan] at a faster pace than before, so that even the early Safavids, originally an Iranian-speaking clan (as evidenced by the quatrains of Shaikh Safi-al-Din, their eponymous ancestor, and by his biography), became Turkified ..."
- It is further stated in p. 241:
- " ... The language of these poems [= Azerbaijani Persian ("Azeri")] is almost identical to that of Shaikh Safi-al-Din's dobaytis ... of the written remains of Azeri, the dobaytis of Shaikh Safi-al-Din are the most important: They are relatively old, their linguistic area and their author are known, and they are accompanied by a paraphrase in Persian which helps their understanding. ..."
- Safavids were Iranian-speaking
- EARLY Safavids (meaning the early grand-masters, like Junayed, Haydar, etc) were Turkified
- LATER Safavids (meaning the Safavid Shahs) were Persianized
- Safavids management style was so different from Oghuz style. Of course, this was under influence of Shii belives. For ins. according to Safavids all rulers should have come from family of prophet. In Ottoman style, they could be any member of dynasty family. Also, lifestyle of Safavids was so different from Oghuz.--TuzsuzDeliBekir 08:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- User:Tajik please look [[1]] here and see what another users say about the conflict.--TuzsuzDeliBekir 22:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
There is an important mistake here
Gokturks are not of Oguz origin they are beys of Asına tribe overrun by Oguz after death of "Kapağan Han" who rulled oguz with an iron fist (his army was 400 000 horsemen and horsewomen).For this reason Oguz never called themselves as Turks till 15th century(Mehmet II of Ottomans used name Turk). For Ottomans and other oguz tribes ,Turk meaned who lived in Turkestan those times.