Talk:Primerica

NPOV problems... big time

First of all, there is no mention in the article that this is an MLM business. Primerica is to insurance what Amway is to merchandising. It is very disingenuous to skirt this fact. Also, the Products Offered section is nothing more than an advertisement. I am going to refer this to the moderators for review. If we wanted a whitewashed, sanitized advertisement for the company, a link to their web site would suffice instead of this poor excuse for an encyclopedia article. It is nothing more than propaganda.

It's no more MLM than any insurance agency. They all have the opportunity to recruit and overwrite. Products offerd are just that. If it's a fact, what's the problem? There are some major differences between a modified prokerage agency and MLM. MLM often requires a monthly minimum purchase requirement. They're ALL retail sales as opposed to direct sales(you keep the difference between the actual cost and the purchase price in retail sales, you're paid by the company based on production in direct sales). No offence intended, but you need to research how insurance and other financial companies compensate before you call Primerica MLM. Also, even among those people who choose to label Primerica MLM, third-party companies rate Primerica 5 out of five stars in every area. Regardless of that, multiple levels of compensation does not MLM make. Real estate isn't MLM, neither is Edward Jones or Ameriprise(who've been under legal action far more than any Citi company. Go there and complain.)

The current version is minimal in it's description of the products, it's sticks to pure fact, and it's mostly constructed by people that don't like the company and a moderator.

You seem to be against Primerica and upset that the entry doesn't speak AGAINST them and thus see it as NPOV. Please give me reason to see otherwise.

Please sign this entry as well. PS. See: "Primerica at MLM Survivor" Tadaaa. Thegzeus 23:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

A Dubious History

Primerica has a dubious history and in the interests of equitable coverage should be included in any article on it. As part of that heritage, it should be noted in this article that Primerica was prohibited from practicing in the State of New York for a period of time. Additionally, they may have been prohibited from practicing in other U.S. states as well. Stevenmitchell 23:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The company you're spaking of is A.L. Williams. The reason they were stopped from operating is the insurance industry was pushing bad press and makig false claims against them. There's been no such action taken to my knowledge since Primerica's been the company name.Thegzeus 19:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to state that, being a former agent myself, I don't believe for one second that the $199 fee goes to "government courses". Why? First of all, if it is a state-sponsored (or provincially-sponsored) program it wouldn't be "$199" everywhere- it would vary. Second of all, if it's a government program, then you should be able to get your license following the completion of the program. The fact that you don't indicates that it most likely isn't government-sponsored.

I would also like to state that the previous revision's assertation that the opinions of former agents can be "dismissed" to be rather disgusting. We are not merely a class of fifty or so people- thousands of failed recruits come every year, as the company loses between 90-98% of its workforce annually. In a subjective article, these complaints- which are substantial- should not be brushed aside but rather brought to the light, since neutrality demands that nothing hides its bad side. I am not saying that Primerica cannot provide a legitimate business- some people have managed to succeed, and I congratulate them. However, for a Wikipedia article to denounce the accusations of many as unimportant stands in the way of everything that Wikipedia is about, since neutrality isn't about hiding anything.-RomeW

HUH? I took my test and got licensced immediately after I finished my classes. 4 days after, in fact. What's your company's turnover rate? Well, a better comparison would be the industry or national average overall. My point still stands. People quit alot of things.Thegzeus 19:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the way it's phrased now is not very good. But if I understand it, the $199 goes to cover Primerica's costs in providing a state-mandated licensing course, whatever that state's requirements are -- the teachers, the books, the tapes, etc.

And no, it will take some time to reach an NPOV presentation on this, since so many people feel strongly about it. Primerica's definitely not for everyone; there is a high attrition rate, and it's a lot more work than most people expect to make a decent living at it -- definitely not a get-rich-quick scheme. The trick is in presenting the company's weaknesses without demonizing it all as "a big scam". I've had family members involved in the company for almost ten years, and they are doing very well without any sort of underhandedness, so I know that it's possible -- and I do believe that Primerica's a legitimate company with no conspiracy to exploit or defraud anyone. But as you say, I've also seen upwards of 90% of the people they recruit disappear from the business within a few months, and this article should not try to ignore the reasons they criticize the company. Nor should it ignore that the very fact that each hierarchy has a certain independence means that there ARE bad agents out there whose actions reflect very poorly on the company. Let's just try to work constructively towards an honest NPOV view -- attributing views properly, and not turning the article into an attack on or defense of the company. — Catherine\^talk 17:12, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That is true- it's not very neutral. Upon reading what we have now, I think that the version we have now is the best we have- it keeps the bad areas but neutralizes them. I'm still a little skeptical of the $199 fee though- I mean, if it really were based on training fees from the US states and Canadian provinces it wouldn't be uniform, it would vary (since every state has different costs associated with this kind of procedure. Perhaps if the statement also read, "though this claim is disputed by former agents" it would be even more satisfactory.

I'd also like to state that I don't believe Primerica are fraud artists, because legally they do not fruad people. Everything they do is legal- they just use any loophole they can find to "hide" the bad aspects. For example, about "duping" people into the $199 fee: they'll bring it up in the presentation (in my case, it was presented as a "course" they offer and is a lot less expensive than at a college, in my case Humber was used), explain it a little (throwing in the bit about the scholarships, which was what drove me out of the company in the end because it seemed like I couldn't get a dime before I finished the course, when I was made to believe that I could do some "training sessions" in front of families that would qualify me) and then get on about how great the company is. You don't remember the presenter saying anything about it (and I had to listen carefully the second time around to catch that as soon as I got hired I'd pay the fee), but, if you try to say in a court of law that "you were not made aware of it," they can turn around and say that they did say something, because they actually did- they just presented it in a way that made you forget about it. I personally call it a "legal scam", because it's advertized as a potential way to make lots of money but in reality very few make that money.-RomeW

The 199 retainer is the same everywhere to simplify paperwork for everyone. Think of the amount of increased paperwork for it to be differnt in every state. Furthermore, look at the cost of being liscenced by doing it yourself. It's almost always higher than $199. It's approximately $700 in MN. That includes classes(required by law), books(part of the class), and the liscence itself(well over $100 alone), and the exam($60). The first failed exam is paid for as well.

"Legal scam?" That implies that Primerica makes money off of failed recruits. If htey fail, how did the company make money? If they quit in 4 months they get the liscencing portion of the retainer back! $40 most likely doesn't cover the full cost of the background check for many areas and recruits. They just LOST money. The company makes money when a sale is made. Salesment don't make money if a sale isn't made. If someone is in the sale of financial product in any prokerage agency system the manager doesn't make money off a recruit if the recruit doesn't make a sale.

Did you READ the IBA? Personally I read all legal documents before signing them, especially if they involve a transfer of money.

How many appointments did you run before you quit? I'm just trying to qualify these statements. You're also generalising the entire company based on one office. Ever been to a bad McDonalds?

What you've described is NOTHING like what I experienced, other than training appointments are needed. Guess what? I got paid when they were done.Thegzeus 19:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Purported cult

This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, -Willmcw 10:58, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Primerica

Primerica is a large financial services company, which is a member of Citigroup, and is considered a cult by some of its opponents. According to the testimonies of victims, Primerica seeks converts by luring friends and relatives of its employees, some of which purchase insurance and some join full-time as recruiters deriving profits from new converts, thus employing a MLM scheme. Some accuse Primerica of employing mind-control.

Primerica attracted criticism due to what some describe as dubious practices, unscrupulousness and agressiveness in client relationships and usage of religious practices to prevent employees from quitting Primerica and disclosing the truth about it. During the regular meetings, recruiters shout "yes" and "amen" and demonstrate other distinctive qualities of a cult.

The company combats negative public image by funding advertizing and PR campaigns.

References:

• http://www.mlmsurvivor.com/links.htm - MLM practices, Primerica.
• http://ww3.primerica.com/public/who/articles/metamorphosis2.html - Primerica responds to accusations of being a cult.

17:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)17:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)~

In general,Primerica suffers from some of the same issues as other MLM businesses. I should clarify that MLM does not mean scam, it's simply an entirely voluntary hierarchy system based on amount of members recruited/business done (either through volume or dollar amount). Most of these issues have to do with the impossible difficulty of controlling such a large representative base. One greedy rep, and now people get screwed. The top of the hierarchy's message to reps is always the same: be honest and help people. Some members take the traditional approach to high pressure insurance sales, which turns away potential reps and clients. Every MLM suffers from some organizations that participate in unethical practices. However, the quality of services offered through Primerica are undoubtadly high and definitely in demand for any willing and able rep to build a lasting and profitable business with.

The products/services offered and compensation provided to reps are what differenciates PFS from other MLM systems. There is a real demand for what Primerica offers to middle class families, not overpriced groceries. The system also does not suffer from hundreds of dollars in investment per month to be successful. The licenses gained are legitimate, the need is legitimate, and the vast majority of reps follow the rules and guidelines set by the company.

On the subject of the one time $199 fee, this fee was talked about towards the end of the Overview, and explained thoroughly by the RVP. The fee is broken down into two parts:

1.)$40, non refundable. Goes towards federal and state background checks. No Felons, please.

2.)$159, refundable. This is for the prelicensing courses provided by the company. The cost of the course is over $500. The $159 is the amount that the rep puts towards that amount. The company pays the rest. If a rep does not get licensed in 120 days, the fee will be refunded and the rep will no longer exist with the company.

In ending, I have not heard any "Amens" or mention of "God" in correlation with the company or any of its members. Generalizing the business as a cult is simply irresponsible and ignorant.

I was at a meeting today and there were several employees placed as foils at the meeting who would shout out agreement whenever the recruiter said something, and supply facts when he called for them. It felt very much like a cult to me. Especially with all of the videos of Ferraris and big houses and promises of a better life. Markleci

Were the things that the 'recruiter' said true? If so, I don't see why one WOULDN'T agree. How does 'promise' of a better life and REAL rich people driving their ACTUAL CARS=cult? If anything you make it sound like one of many 'get rich quick' plans ala infomercials. I'm honestly dumbfounded by your response to it. i'm guessing they played the video from the Success from Home magazine(July 2005 the entire issue was dedicated to Primerica). John Adison speaks of how hard it is to succeed with Primerica in the video. No promises are made in an opportunity meeting. Furthermore 'placed' and 'foils' implied they were secretive about the fact that they were reps(ask them before them meeting, they'll tell you.). It's common, in fact almost REQUIRED for reps to attend the meetings. Especially if they have guests. Was the person who invited you there? of course they were, or at the least their upline. 'Flis' itself implies that there were people speaking agaist the things they said. Again, I find your response odd and most likely that of osmeone LOOKING for a reason to dislike the company. This IS verifiable information. I'm at almost every meeting our office has. I speak from experience. I can quote people here if you like. I'd like more specific information so I can make a more detailed response to what you're saying. --Thegzeus 16:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Similar State Fees

RomeW: You are right in that each state has different fees for getting licensed, and I'm writing this to clarify why the company consistently asks only $199. What the company does is it subsidises (SP) the cost of training and licensing but makes it easier for it's agents by asking for the same fee in submitting an independant business application. The license, facility, materials and instructor generaly costs more than $199.00, so the company makes up the gap.

As an example it may cost (and these are examples don't take them as the actual expense) $450 for the company to license a person in California, $250 in Kansas and $120 in Maine, but the company only asks $199.

The reason they do that is to make it easier on their field reps. I live in Kansas City, 2 miles from the state line. I spend time in both states. If I did have someone interested in a career how confusing would it be to say licening is $199 in KS but $250 in MO? What if we lived in a tri-state area?

The office I'm licensed to work out of is one of the best in the company at licensing people which is 30%. In fact the company has asked the owner of our office to develop material on how we have such a hight recruit to code ration, because some offices have a recruit to code ration less than 1%.

As for people quitting, the company ratio's are about the same as those of most colleges. Simply look at how many students start as freshmen and compare that to how many graduate with a bachelors, then masters, then PHD's. Any individuals success is based on their effort, and people who don't work or can't be disciplined quit. Assuming everyone would be successful is as realistic as expecting everyone who goes to college to come out with a PHD. (It seems that this paragraph is implying that one is only successful if he or she recieves a Ph.D, I recommend rewording this. Many students are quite successful with only an associates or batchelor's degree. Further, regarding the majority of undergraduate institutions: Most schools that only graduated one to thirty percent of its enrolled students would probably be investigated and would then most likely have its accreditation suspended or even revoked)

Actually, it's SAYING that sucess(IE, successfully completing the schooling needed to recieve a PHD) takes alot of time and hard work. I got that the first time I read it, and double checked the language used to make sure. --Thegzeus 16:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Corporate Links

It is redundant to link all 8 corporate sites in this article. Each of those links are linked directly from the primary corporate site. Please do not add them in again Anazgnos 20:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

According to the policies and guidelines and a NPOV guidelines, inclusion of the Official corporate sites is permissable. Linking all corporate sites is not redundant. They do not redirect to the primary site, and their focus is for products and/or services Primerica offers. Please do not delete them again. A1794 08:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Unsigned Comments innapropriately posted in main article

(relocated from main article:" "To use a word like "scheme" implies wrong doing of some sort. The disclaimer sized sentence at the end of the paragraph is not enough to contradict the inflamatory language in the beginning of the paragraph.

Also, whose criticisms of Primerica are these? Non biased? Please rethink. Thank You."

I don't feel "scheme" was overly negative or inflammatory in context but I have nevertheless removed it.

I will work on threading references to existing articles containing the criticisms listed. I believe this is a fair and impartial summary or the criticisms that are commonly levied against the company. If you wish to add a balancing perspective at this point the article could certainly use some more information on what services or products Primerica alleges to offer, which I do not claim to be knowledgeable enough to provide. The services should be described impartially and not hawked or cloaked in rhetoric, as appeared in previous revisions. Anazgnos 21:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Criticisms

These criticisms exist, and are being reported on fairly and neutrally. This portion of the article should not be treated as an opportunity to defend the company or discredit criticisms as they are stated. If needed, a seperate paragraph or section regarding responses to criticisms may be entered. 70.183.63.108 21:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Gnarlyocelot - if you're going to edit the article please be sure to copy the code and not just the text...you removed all the citations and external links in the criticism section...which I'm certain was unintentional. I don't really object to the bulk of your changes, but you need to avoid the appearance of the whole "here's the criticism...and here's why it's bullshit" defensive tone. Anazgnos 19:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

OK...at this point I don't think there's anything to do but seperate "criticism" into a seperate section from "defense against criticism", if that's what you guys insist on doing. Constant qualifiers and "here's why it's not MLM" (etc.) is overly defensive and non-neutral in the context of a basic list of fully referenced criticisms. For example the phrase "disqualifying pyramid scheme accusations", or other such qualifying statements, violates NPOV. I will work on parsing the two when I get a chance and then you can add to the "defense" section to yr heart's content, at which point I expect the "criticism" section can be left well enough alone. Anazgnos 16:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with the bulk of the new section, but non-neutral comments (such as: "speculations are in error" - Who says so...you? The "speculations" are a given via a published reference. see NPOV) will continue to be pruned. YOU (the writer) cannot classify or qualify statements. If you want to present an opinion or characterize a statement or suggest conclusions, you MUST provide a reference to a credible, previously published source. Anazgnos 19:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Some, some, some...no no no. The citations don't characterize those actions as being limited, they refer to them as being general. You can't qualify cited statements according to your own opinions. Anazgnos 20:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Gnarlyocelot - effectively every statement in the current "criticism" paragraph is cited. You cannot change the intent of the cited statements by adding the qualifier "some", as in "some say" or "some agents", etc, to each of them. That serves to contradict or editorialize the content and intent of the cited statements, which is not permissisble according to NPOV guidelines. If you wish to put a slant on/discredit the cited criticisms, do so in the "discussing/addressing" section, and do so with your own cited references - not with your own opinion. Anazgnos 20:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Referred to Mediation Cabal Anazgnos 21:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

GnarlyOcelot: Anazgnos, first, my sincerest apologies; i did not realize there was a section where the article could be discussed. I think we've both been getting a little frustrated but now that we can actually exchange viewpoints hopefully this will be more fruitful. Im not entirely familiar with how this works. 1. How do i send you messages directly and 2. is this how we should continue communicating? Through this wikipedia box? Let's make this a good fair article. Thanks.

you'll want to "sign" your comments with four of these (~) to get the fancy sig and date/time stamping) We've got a mediator on the case at the link posted above (and right here)...I'm just trying to get NPOV policy call on the usage of "some ___" to qualify the statements in the criticism section, and he advised I get in touch with you privately to make sure you were aware of the discussion. So my complaint is as stated above. I'd say just pop on over to the mediation page and state your position on the most recent edits there. I'm not on any kind of crusade here - I'm just trying to get this article to NPOV status. In good faith I refraining from further reversions/edits until this issue is resolved. Anazgnos 07:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and pasted in the "compromise" paragraph. I took the "addressing" section out as well since it was adressing things that are no longer present in the main paragraph, but if you want to bring some of that back, feel free. Anazgnos 16:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Reversions

User "Lyean" - You have reverted this article to a previous revision two times. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked according to Wikipedia policy. The previous article is not acceptable according to Wikipedia NPOV standards. Thank you. Anazgnos 20:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Is this the reason it now has many links to scam sites and is SIGNIFICANTLY shorter than it was a week ago? One week earlier it was accurate, detailed, and informative. now it's short, inconclusive, and has as much info as some small amature band entry... I'm sorry if that comes off crass, because it is well WRITTEN, but waht's written doesn't inform very well.--Thegzeus 20:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The version I can only assume you are referring to was, to be sure, longer. The current revision is the result of a judicious pruning of that text. All text removed was at best either NPOV, comprised needlessly convoluted and irrelevant deluges of figures to support blantantly NPOV statements, constituted blatant hawking or sales-pitching of Primerica's services, or was of inappropriately informal tone. The worst of it seemed to be copied from a Primerica pamphlet (or should I say tract?)...except (or perhaps accounting for) the fourth-grade reading level. I agree that they may not be enough content here, and I've invited anyone knowledgeable on the subject to expand that content, with no takers. Anazgnos 23:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Tract? You have some kind of agenda here, and I'd like to know what it is so we can move forward with a clear idea of where we're heading. You're extremely rude, sir, and I'd like you to at least pretend to understand basic courtesy.

No takers? There was alot of info, and you can fix the tone without deleting the content. I can provide someone with info if they can set up the page. I was reading at a high school level in 4th grade, and I've...maintained that so I figure I could write something up in Word or such and have it converted...

And no, it won't be copied word for word.Thegzeus 23:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

This is the version I was trying to mention

Excuse my lack of skill in the method of posting here. I'm not used to it yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Primerica_Financial_Services&direction=prev&oldid=54732891

This version is far superior to what we have left. Additions to would better than removals from it, I believe.

The cult comments are...ludicrously one-sided, so those are out.

A fair discussion of both sides of NEW criticisms is in order. Once a good balanced set with both sides represented equally is available, we can then move forward.

I'm going to have to insist on the previous revision, the result of the moderation request. An impartial observer deemed that one relevant and neutral. I submitted to considerable cuts to my original text as a compromise. The version you've instated smacks of blatant attempts to spin and counter criticism, i.e., couching POV in superficially NPOV language.

Rather than focusing on the criticism section, I might suggest that you consider expanding the descriptive elements of the main article. If you're versed in Primerica's methods and operations you'd presumably be qualified to do so; I am not. As long as that space is not used to spin criticism or hawk or play up the wonderful benefits that Primerica offers.

And as far as the "cult" comments being "one sided" - you'll note the reference link on that statement is Primerica's own site. The statement is that they have been referred to as a cult, and the support of that statement is Primerica's own acknowledgement of that allegation. Curious readers will be taken directly to Primerica's own corporate spin on that issue; I really think you have nothing to complain about there.Anazgnos 04:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I was speaking of the extended version and the 'ripoff.com' quote.

You're speaking almost as though you have an egenda agaist promerica.

I'm trying to get the facts straight, and I do work with primerica. I'm very well versed.

Simply seperating the criticism that have any basis in fact and anyting to counter them that can also be referenced(I can give names, quotes, reference internal memo etc.) into two sections seems fair.

The $MART loan section being shortened to that degree seems pointless. There were several NPOV statements that could ahve been removed without nixing the entire section.

The theory of decreasing Responsibility can be sourced from either a Primerica Website, or Success from Home magazine, July 2005. Many other products are discussed there as well.

The wording can be changed, but nothing in that version was false.

Additions(such as specific sources of information) were neccesary.

Note that I haven't done it, I'm simply waiting for people to assist in revisions. It needs them, but the current version gives no info of any worth. The corporate links have more info, making this entry useless.

I could grab several pieces of info and that magazine and make a complete entry, but I am NOT EVEN CLOSE to well-versed on how making entries works here.

No WYSIWYG? I can't do it.

I just now noticed who you were, and that you'd deleted where you'd said you were "done with this" and I should "make it into whatever corporate blow-job wet dream" I wanted to.

What was your original text? What's your experience with the company?Thegzeus 23:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Anazgnos/Thegzeus, This article is under review by Primerica to expand and or edit the main points of the article. Primerica will adhere to the policies and guidelines set forth by Wikipedia (NPOV). A1794 12:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. It's great to see compliance getting involved in this.