Talk:NGC 6946

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"provisionally known as"

"Provisionally" (like "tentatively") is not the right word. It implies that some group has formally adopted the name as a temporary name until a permanent decision can be made. That's not the case here; the name has simply been adopted through repeated use. The wording "sometimes known as" conveys the situation more accurately. -- Elphion (talk) 04:18, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Funny to watch a bunch of inept vandals continuously restoring this moronic wording for no apparent reason though. Someone should report them somewhere. If Wikipedia were a serious encyclopaedia, they'd be quickly banned for such contemptible idiocy. 95.97.85.50 (talk) 16:42, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They are not vandals. The primary purpose appears to be to characterize the name as unofficial or temporary. But "provisional" is the wrong word for either, and it's not clear whether the name is in fact temporary. It does not yet have quite the currency of other street names. -- Elphion (talk) 20:17, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Elphion: Look. If you look at the reference [3] it says "Gemini Observatory Welcomes 2005 with Release of Galactic Fireworks Image."[1] Nowhere does it say "Fireworks galaxy" at all, and this is the first to associate the words in such a reference. It refers to the large number of active HII regions, but most SAB-type 'grand design' galaxies are like this. I will add 'unofficial' here instead of 'provisionally', even though the definition : "arranged or existing for the present, possibly to be changed later" is perfectly 110% correct. Thanks. Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:17, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

But the related [PDF] published by gemini.edu labels it explicitly "The Fireworks Galaxy". The name is getting to be fairly widespread: it appears, e.g., in websites published by NASA (for example [APOD] and [JPL], among several others), the University of Arizona (e.g., [Sky Center], and S&T ([AT 2017eaw]). My point, however, is not that the name is "sometimes" used (as I argued above, and which seems undeniable at this point), but that "provisional" is the wrong term. The definition you provide partially captures the connotation, which is that something is "provided" by some body or authority as a semi-official stand-in pending further official action. That's not what's going on here (or for any "street name"). Your alternative ("unofficially") works much better. -- Elphion (talk) 05:43, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sro23: The origin starts in 31st December 2005 not in 2017. Wikipedia is very likely source of these recent editions, and is again an example of perpetuating common names creation for notoriety or just for the sake of it. As for: "Your alternative ("unofficially") works much better." This was Sro23's idea, in which I gratefully thank them. Cheers. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:36, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Elphion: Ref. [PDF] says fireworks is tentative Ie. The "Fireworks" Galaxy. It was not known as this. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:42, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I'm not seeing anything tentative claimed about the name in the PDF, certainly not the word "tentative". It does put the name in quotes, signifying that it's not an official name. -- Elphion (talk) 07:03, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Of course WP serves to establish names more broadly, just as it disseminates knowledge more broadly. You can argue (correctly) that more people use the name because it has appeared in WP, though that's not the only force behind the name. But WP did not invent the name, it was reporting earlier usage. APOD, e.g., picked the name up quite quickly, nearly 2 years before it appeared here. -- Elphion (talk) 07:10, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Elphion: Just a few points. The article date is 1st January 2005, with the release date 31st January 2004 (not 2005. which is likely a mistake and was probably lost in translation. Spanish 'Sábado 1 de enero de 2005' being 1st January 2005). APOD is dated 25th January 2005, which is afterwards. "Like the annual New Year’s fireworks display," is merely the means of making the story popular, created by the Gemini publicity staff to promote the observatory's works. Also"WP did not invent the name", but is used to perpetuate it. APOD wrongly labelled the name, but the actual cite/linked source does not. The name is merely 'the caption.' Saying "nearly 2 years before it appeared here." is how? The pdf is not dated, but the press release date is certainly 31st December 2004.

Press release was also used under; "A Stellar Debut for Gemini Observatory's Online Image Gallery | NSF om Jan 10, 2005 here [[2]] "Fireworks Galaxy" does not appear here. Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:33, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent)

Let me clarify what I think are the main points in response to your argument:

(1) The name "Fireworks Galaxy" appeared in the PDF, which I presume is roughly coeval with the ESO press release. You can assert that the words were meant as a caption, not as a name, but the vast majority of readers will have taken it as a name (as I think it was intended). Certainly the APOD editors took it that way.

(2) The APOD editors picked this up early in 2005, and used the name in their publication of the Gemini image.

(3) The name did not appear in WP until some two years later.

(4) Therefore the name did not spread principally because of its inclusion in WP. Rather, people picked it up from Gemini and APOD. This is in fact the way nicknames usually spread: amateurs read them on professional sites or other amateur sites (like S&T or Astronomical League) and the names gain currency. Enough currency that someone eventually adds them to WP.

(5) There is no evidence -- zilch -- that there is some conspiracy to "use Wikipedia" in a plot to spread such nicknames. They get added here principally because they have currency among amateurs. Once they get here, of course, they get wider currency, but that is only to be expected.

I do not understand why the nicknames bother you, though they clearly do. I will say that you are fighting a losing battle in trying to stifle them: they are everywhere in amateur sources (books, websites, observing programs, etc.) and increasingly in professional sources as well, as professionals begin to understand the importance of engaging the lay audience. The nicknames will continue to spread, with or without WP. For WP to ignore them is simply to stick one's head in the sand.

-- Elphion (talk) 02:54, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"There is no evidence -- zilch -- that there is some conspiracy to "use Wikipedia" in a plot to spread such nicknames." Agreed. Tis is not what I'm saying. Subjectivity is the issue here, and it is harder to differentiate true naming from those just having a lark or seeking notoriety. The reference / cite here doesn't name this, which is the central issue, and breaks WP policy. Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:49, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Arianewiki" is clearly not a native speaker of English, and clearly not even remotely familiar with the astronomical literature on this subject. In the past I've seen them declaring that some text was vandalism when added to one article, then adding exactly the same text to another article, then flatly denying that they had done so, so I do not think they have the competence to edit anything.

For those more capable of rational thought:

(outdent again)

Ok, that's an over-reaction. Can we please leave the ad hominems at the door? Being a native speaker of the language has never been a requirement for editing here, and Ariane generally yields on purely linguistic matters. Ariane also has a solid astronomical background and is committed to accuracy in WP. So lets stick to the matters under discussion here. (And I hope Ariane will not feel obligated to respond to each point above -- let's just move on.)

Your references are good evidence that the name is becoming current. We still need to address Ariane's objection that our reference for the name (the Gemini press release) does not in fact use the phrase "Fireworks Galaxy", although it was very likely the source that inspired the name. We can pick another reference (either APOD or any of the several you have provided), but I would still like to preserve a reference to the Gemini press release, or at least to the related PDF.

-- Elphion (talk) 20:38, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sro23:@KuKu: Umm... 145.15.244.17 I'm an English / French speaker, and for the rest, I just ignore WP:PA, but since this notice[[3]] I now have little choice.

Yet this is become clearly an concerted attack towards me, as seen by the multple-IPs all block-evading or WP:BKFIP socks?) e.g. 193.173.216.91, 2.25.45.249, 81.145.243.195, 148.122.187.2 in this article and/or List of Scottish counties by highest point, as seen by the accusation of the joyless "some kind of retarded vandalism" and now "I do not think they have the competence to edit anything." So what do you want here? Revenge, retribution, me just to get out of way, blood?

Ever since reversion of this edit[[4]], this one[[5]] and this [[6]] by 2.25.45.249, there has been a spate of reverts by multiple IPs. Worryingly, Special:Contributions/2.25.45.249 own block will be lifted on 11th November, possibly starting this WP:EW over again. The reasoning stated by 145.15.244.17 and 2.25.45.249 here[[7]]

Sorry Elphion, this is beyond any over-reaction. (If this is not 'rational thought', then what is?) Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:33, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are not competent to edit Wikipedia in the English language. Every single sentence you've written here contains errors. And yet you are so disgustingly arrogant that you insist on a succession of factually incorrect and syntactically awkward words instead of the obviously correct in all sense "also". And elsewhere you are so fuckwitted that you have repeatedly broken the sorting of a table, evidently without even understanding that that is what you are doing. Stop fucking articles up out of sheer repellent stupidity.