Talk:Enclosure

There's a pretty strong case for moving this to Inclosure eg the eighteenth century Inclosure Acts. Given that there are several other definitions of enclosure that could be added I think it should be moved. adamsan 11:52, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well I'd never heard of the inclosure usage, but research seems to back it up, so I've elided a few more redirects. Noisy | Talk 19:38, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

This should be moved to a page like Enclosure (Agricultural Revolution). (Or move to Enclosure and make the current Enclosure called Enclosure (disambiguation).) Enclosure gets 5,170,000 hits on Google; inclosure gets only 66,900. Inclosure is a misspelling, according to both Yahoo and Google. ("Did you mean: enclosure?") - Tony Jin 22:26, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

I recommend leaving it as 'enclosure', or the 'Enclosure (Agricultural Revolution)' suggestion of Tony Jin, and elide the redirects from Inclosure. 'The enclosure of the commons' (so spelt) is a very important topic in the beginning sociology curriculum at universities, so you could potentially be getting loads of hits from people searching for the modern day spelling of enclosure, which is how it is addressed in the sociology classes. Hence, it's not just for history buffs, or a curiosity of mediæval history and property law, so calling it by the historical name will actually serve to confuse relatively more people and reduce the chance of finding the entry directly or at all. Furthermore, although it's English enclosure only, Marx used it in his writings as an example of a kind of progression of history to show how the 'history of man is the history of class conflict' etc, so the English example has a special place in literature for this reason. Marx - Capital, Volume I, Part VIII, Ch 27 - EXPROPRIATION OF THE AGRICULTURAL POPULATION FROM THE LAND - Marx (translated?) always spells it 'enclosure', and only quotes Bacon once as using 'inclosure' in this chapter - e.g. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch27.htm (There's also a lot of typos there to clean up, which I will progressively do, and there's a very long intro with the contents appearing a long way down, which should perhaps be restructured.) --Sean01 08:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I thought until I did a bit of research. For the usage of this article, Inclosure is the right term. That's the name of the Acts, and the term used in authoritative documentation. Enclosure is correct in many usages, but not for this topic. Noisy | Talk 23:55, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

Jebus. Can someone explain what the benefit of creating an enclosure (disambig) page is when enclosure was already doing the job perfectly well? And then redirecting the now empty enclosure page to inclosure? adamsan 01:44, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Enclosure is the accepted current academic spelling, including for Parliamentary Enclosure in England. Historical spelling was not always standardized in the way our spelling is; it's appropriate to use historical spelling in quotations, etc, but you don't normally use it in general use. (I am a graduate student in English rural history of this period.) More seriously, there are some glaring inaccuracies on this page, but before I work to correct them, I will see what the other page has. - *jb 04:09, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have now re-written and editted large sections of the article to improve the accuracy. I have only written on England, as that is the area I know. Enclosure in other areas should be added as this article develops. - *jb 05:22, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not gonna weigh in on the in.. vs. en... debate, but I will comment that this article reads pretty awkwardly with the title being Inclosure and the first section being called Enclosure! Please ye experts, do something! Gabe 17:27, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

When I learnt about this in the UK it was always called "Enclosure", however the original bills were spelled. I'd never seen the "Inclosure" usage until I read this article... Cromis 22:14, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested move

The discussion above seems to me to support the title "enclosure"; this is a subject on which I did some work as an undergraduate (admittedly twenty-five years ago now), and which is one of the research and teaching interests of one of my colleagues. I never saw the "inclosure" spelling in modern texts, and my colleague also supports the use of "enclosure" as being the correct spelling (now and fopr some considerable time). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:38, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As I say above, I was all for using enclosure until I did some research about it. Now, I am opposed to moving away from Inclosure. Noisy | Talk 22:31, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
Could you say what this research was? I can't find a single modern usage of "inclosure" in this context (or, in fact, in any context). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:38, 12 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Supporting "Enclosure" over "Inclosure". Although the principal acts were named "Inclosure Act..." modern parliamentary use matches common use. See for example The New Forest (Confirmation of the Byelaws of the Verderers of the New Forest) Order 2003, in which the term "Enclosure" is used throughout. Inclosure and Enclosure are alternate spellings of the same word, and Enclosure is prefered as the most common name- (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zeimusu (talk • contribs) 04:40, 16 August 2005.
Support. Philip Baird Shearer 06:11, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In the absence of any citations for "Inclosure", and in light of the comments above, I'll be bold, and move the article. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Reversal of this move has been requested. Some of us have personal committments and work to do. I will provide citations in time. Noisy | Talk 11:58, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

I've removed it as it was both confusing and too soon after the first vote. Do please continue discussing it, though. violet/riga (t) 12:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that six days was plenty of time to give for the production of citations, especially in the light of the rest of the discussion. (Note also that Noisy (talk · contribs), aside from rewording the article, also returned at least one of the (surprisingly numerous) redirects that I'd laboriously corrected back to a double redirect.) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:08, 18 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Need to include enclosure from other contexts

Hi - I'm only an occasional contributor, but I wanted to say that this article right now is too narrow. It deals only with enclosure in England, but enclosure is a world wide issue (though the word is definitely English in origin). Unfortunately, my own dissertation research is on English enclosure (I have added what I know from this research and background reading) - as I come across other examples, I will try to include, but I hope that there are others can expand upon this article. Really there should be sections for different areas of the world - enclosure in England, for example, followed perhaps by enclosure in the British Empire, WTO support of enclosure of comunally held land, etc. - 128.36.135.62 18:37, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Marxist perspective

Speaking of too narrow a focus...

I'm not inclined to complain too much right now because there doesn't appear to have been any overt omissions (AFAIK); but AFAIC the historical-materialist explanation of the enclosures (all enclosures world-wide for that matter) is/would not only shed the most light on this object-matter -- but is itself, historically, AFAIK the most complete exposition of this entire episode bar-none.

So it's a mystery to me why there appears to be an utter lack of any marxist angle in this article. Not even a hint or whiff of it regarding this important period in capitalist development and history.

So please consider this section an intent to begin adding that facet of this topic.

Pazouzou 05:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Marx was very important for beginning historical discussion on enclosure, and many of the important earlier historical works on the social implications of enclosure are Marxist or neo-Marxist in nature - BUT current Marxist historiography is not the most complete exposition of the issue, and has many serious flaws. The less theoretical and more evidence-oriented social and agrarian historians are doing better research on exactly what happened with enclosure (as well as engrossment), though I think they tend to ignore some more qualitative evidence of its effects (as demonstrated through plebian resistence). - 80.229.165.51 00:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC) aka *jb (sorry, would sign in, but having trouble remembering my old pass word)[reply]

Capitalism and Industrialism

Well, I'm not sure how much Marxism is necessarily required, but there ought to be some thought to connecting Enclosure to the development of the Industrial Age in England (starting with industrial agriculture) and wage slavery, which was the condition to which the displaced peasants were forced. The rural poor weren't producing much of anything; but if anything at all, only for themselves. Once forced off the land they could be put to work to generate the "wealth of nations." Modern consumer culture reflects the ultimate refinement of this system.

67.187.79.208 05:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC) Matt[reply]

Minor Update

I made a minor update and reference to Marx and political economy, and referenced Sir Thomas More also -- but a bit lazy, just placed the references there, fixed some typos and syntax, and endorsed the use of the word 'enclosure' because of sociological (Marxist) curricular references to it --Sean01 10:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

-- The note "corn [in a modern sense, wheat and other grains]" changed to "corn [wheat and other grains]", since this use of corn is not an archaicism but rather a difference of regional Englishes: in America corn=maize, while in the UK and other areas corn is used to mean grains.

enclosures -Scotland

One of the most influential events in the development of Canada was the migration of the Scots following the implementation of the enclosure system in Scotland.

As part of my undergraduate studies, I conducted an exercise in migration analysis relating to the events following the Black Plague, which included the replacement of the indigenous population and the Clans in Scotland with sheep enclosures. In retrospect, I am convinced that the sheep were deemed less likely to wear kilts, play bagpipes and follow the likes of William Wallace in burning English garrisons.

I have always been convinced that the implementation of the enclosure system was the turning point in the development of independent thought and determination of the modern individual, without which there could not have been the reformation, the industrial revolution, the telephone, Marshall McLuhan or the internet.

Alas, my essay was lost, however, I would welcome contributions about impact of the implementation of the Enclosures in Scotland and development of the modern independent thinker.

Martin Luther and anti-semitism

Removed the portion that called Martin Luther an anti-semite. A bit hyperbolic given the article's scope and debatable as to the accuracy of that term here. That can be debated on the Martin Luther page.