Talk:Bloemfontein

Please keep out school rivalry

This is an encyclopedia not a grafitti wall. Im not inclined to like the last sentence concerning most famous schools (Grey and Eunice) but am letting it stand. But really Oranje the best girls school is just likely to enlist "mooi skoone ..." comments. Also removing schools is not kosher

While on the subject a table of Schools might be better. Paul Hjul 18:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Grey College is the 3rd oldest school in South Africa and the oldest school outside of Cape Town (following SACS and Bishops). It has produced legendary old boys and upholds very strong traditions.Grey College was founded by Sir George Grey on 13 October 1855 and the school's grounds contain some beautiful buildings designed by Sir Herbert Baker. For more info, go to [Grey College http://www.gc.co.za]

Please re-read earlier post particularly the bit "Im not inclined to like" - Giving a condenced school history in the discussion thread is silly. If you look at the history of the page you'll see the particular school rivalry problem that existed on the page. Paul Hjul 18:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is all this big fuss about Grey College, Eunice, Oranje? Surely this page should be more about Bloemfontein? In any event, is rivalry not just a negative word for competiton? Paul, it also seems that you are only opinionated contributor here. The reference to Grey College above was a nice enough teaser to make me more interested to look at their website. Put both your feet back on the ground mate (and while there, check your spelling).

Its actually not worth going into this mate: You appear (based on checking the history of this talk page) to be the same person who made the original remarks.

born: Tolkien : the Lord of the ring

     Aldous Von Tana architect Orange State member Domus Academy

Historically Afrikaaner

"Though historically a predominantly Afrikaner settlement, Bloemfontein was officially founded in 1846" ...

IIRC Bloemfonteins cities population is generally regarded as having been predominantly English up until the 20th centuary - in spite of being the capital of the OFS Republic the trade and commerce factor weighing very heavily into the equation. Checking this is on my overrunning "todo list", but in any event Afrikaaner with respect to language is problematic considering that it really only emerged as a seperate language in the 20th centuary - seperating language and culture seems like a route, although it will lengthen the section.

Bloemfontein Conference

The conference demonstrated the unsatisable arrogance of both Kruger and Milner (needs citations is historically contestable)

I've removed the comment and instead opened it up here as I believe it is more appropriate for the Talk page. I agree that this remark needs a citation or needs to be removed.

Paul Hjul 08:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Paul, fair enough it was my comment that the above claim was contestable. In his book, "Goodbye Dolly Gray" (1959) Ch. "Outbreak of War", Rayne Kruger gives an overview of the Bloemfontein Conference and doesn't make any suggestions about President Kruger's arrogance, nor Milner's; though he does make several comments regarding Milner refusing to shake the President's hand.

J.C. Smuts [Jnr], in Jan Chritian Smuts(1954), ch. X11 'Dark Clouds', suggests Milner was 'the most dangerous man'...[Britian] could possibly have exported to South Africa. Manfred Nathan, Paul Kruger: His Life and Times,(1941) pp.430-435 suggests Kruger offered concessions, but concludes 'Milner showed at the outset he would make no concession.'(p. 435.) Those are the South African writers...

Byron Farwell, The Great Boer War,(1976) sid 'Kruger tried to bargain but Milner was obdurate' p.34. Thomas Pakenham, The Boer War, (1979) Ch. 6 puts the blame on Milner, and in Ch.42 said, 'Milner...had tried to precipitate war'. They are British historians...

The Australian historian Craig Wilcox, Australia's Boer War (2002), says that '[t]he Uitlanders were indeeed suffering, but not from Boer tyranny' (p.18) and Kruger offered concessions and that after the conference the Australian press thought a war was remote(p.19).

Kruger according to the various sources offered concessions; therfore to say he was arrogrant at the Conference is a sweeping statement unsupported by historians. On the other hand, Milner doesn't seems to have displayed arrogrance other than refusing to shake Kruger's hand - however, all the historical evidence suggests Milner had a plan - Milner maak a plan to bring about a war.

As an Aussie uitlander an outsider looking in from afar, it is vital that the article on Bloemfontein should be accurate. Tonyob 09:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hence I agree that citations are needed - actually there is sufficient material to warrant a seperate article dealing with the Conference and various views.

My point here is simply that the inclusion in brackets to indicate a problem with the article viz. a missing citation is problematic as the matter is better suited to the talk pages. Paul Hjul 11:05, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Im inclined to put a foot note at the end of that remark saying "While no common consensus amongst historians exist as to the apportionment of fault, accusations of insatisable arrogance have been laid against both Milner (cite critics of Milner) and Kruger.(cite critics of Kruger)"