Talk:Armenian–Tatar massacres of 1905–1907

Neutrality of the sources

http://artsakhworld.com/ is not a neutral source, this website belongs to the Armenian separatists in Nagorno-Karabakh, and the author works for one of Armenian news agencies. Grandmaster 11:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Is it a reliable source? - FrancisTyers 12:53, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. It presents the things only from one point of view, ignoring the facts that don’t fit it’s political agenda. Grandmaster 16:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Then it should be removed. - FrancisTyers 16:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we revert it to the last version by Squiddy [1], it was quite neutral, plus anonymous editor, who added info from http://artsakhworld.com/ removed one of the references, maybe it was not the best one, but still quite worth attention. Controversial topics like this should be covered using neutral sources, which don’t have a political agenda to push. Grandmaster 17:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, folks, let's trust the Azerbaijani sources that, as we all know, frequently insult Armenians. Great thinking! Grandmaster, if I find one POV thing on these websites, I will remove them. Hakob 04:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The Khojaly massacre article doesn't have neutral sources either, but I don't see you (grandmaster) wanting to change that.--Moosh88 00:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I never included any Azeri sources here, neither any Armenian sources should be. In Khojaly article all the views are properly attributed, Azeri sources were not used, and HRW and Memorial are neutral sources, this article is completely different. I revert this to the last version by Squiddy. Grandmaster 12:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Grandmaster, the source used in this article is POV Baku87 13:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed pending citation

This has been removed pending a citation. - FrancisTyers 00:17, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

During 1903 and 1904 the authorities began arming Tatars and preparing anti-Armenian pogroms.

POV PICS

The pictures used in the article are both showing 1 side which is Armenian victims. This article would be more correct if it showed 1 armenian and 1 azerbaijani victime picture. Please correct this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.83.1.6 (talk) 08:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC).

Correct it yourself by finding such a picture (if one exists). BTW, the pictures in this entry are from (or are identical to those in) the book "Fire and Sword in the Caucasus" by Luigi Villari. Meowy 20:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

armenia patriot comment

Some thought that last edit should be discussed on talkpage. It was a quote singled out of the context. If we gonna put more information here, it should be made in proper form with diverse references. As for me, in the current form it is NPOV.--Dacy69 16:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The name

Folantin, there werent Azeris in 1907, so the name of "Armenian-Tartar massacres" should be returned. All the sources are calling it Armenian-Tartar, not Azeri, so if even they are "old-fashioned and confusing to English readers" (??), pls no OR this is historiography not an article on curent moda or estehics. If you hadnt reliable sources calling the events "Armenian-Azeri massacres" than the name is OR. Andranikpasha (talk) 22:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Both Suny and Ternon refer to "Azeris" or "Azerbaidjanis" when talking about this era. --Folantin (talk) 09:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

In all the cases these events have their own name and no need to change it. If Suny (called by Grandmaster a partisan unreliable source, anyways) used the term of Armenian-Azeri massacres 1905-1907, then OK, if no, we should change it! PS- By the way, Azeri and Azerbaijani are not the same terms. Andranikpasha (talk) 12:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

"In all the cases these events have their own name and no need to change it". I don't understand this sentence. I don't know who or what Grandmaster is, but Suny is a noted academic specialist in Transcaucasian history whose works certainly pass WP:RS. --Folantin (talk) 12:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Any event or object has a name: Yerevan is a commonly recognized name, you cant change it to Erevan or any other name you like. Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, Sumgait pogroms are recognized names for that events, you cant change it just cuz you dont like it. Grandmaster is a user (see above) who protests the using of Suny for example here March Days as Suny calls these events not March Days but Baku revolt. So if we re using Suny to give names for Armenian-Tartar (Azeri) clashes then lets also rename March Days. And here are many reliable sources calling these events "Armenian-Tartar":

• "Armenian/Tartar clashes" [2]
• "Armenian-Tartar clashes in Baku and Nagorno-Karabagh in 1905"[3]
• "Armenian-Tartar conflict" [4]
• "Armenian-Tartar butcheries" [5]
• "Armenian-Tartar antagonism" [6], etc etc.

It also called "Armenian-Tartar war" by Thomas de Waal [7]. Is Suny call them Armenian-Azeri clashes or he just uses the term of Azeris? Andranikpasha (talk) 13:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I'm not sure I see the purpose of all this, which seems to be the result of some obscure edit war elsewhere. Hmm, Trotsky, Kautsky, some article about Gurdjieff (of all people)? I'm not overwhelmed. This is an English-language encyclopaedia and should be aimed at the convenience of anglophone readers - the fact is the "Tartars" are better known as Azeris. Rather than arguing over this article's title, I think more effort to should go into fixing the actual content. At the moment, it's hardly a shining gem (and when I first came across it, it used Stalin as a source!). --Folantin (talk) 13:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Folantin, pls stop doing OR here! I represented you man reliable sources (also from JSTOR, modern experts, prominent politicians of the time, etc) and never receive any sourced info but your own opinion. If you hadnt any quotes proving your unsourced and undiscussed redierct Im going to change the name according to represented sources. by the way, search at NYT archive for Azeris and Tartars in 1905 to be sure what you're doing is an fully OR!Andranikpasha (talk) 13:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

One of the sources provided by Andranikpasha is:

The Caucasian Knot: The History and Geopolitics of Nagorno-Karabagh. by Levon Chorbajian, Patrick Donabedian, Claude Mutafian. Author(s) of Review: Dennis R. Papazian

This is hardly a good source, it represents the Armenian position only. As for the title of this article, in the Russian empire all Turkic people were called Tatars, and usually they were distinguished by regional affiliation, for example, Azerbaijani Tatars. However the term Tatar would be very confusing for the modern reader, who would have difficulties with understanding which Tatar people are being discussed in the article. Therefore the current title makes a lot more sense than what is proposed by Andranikpasha. Grandmaster (talk) 11:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Any sources, or its your opinion? Andranikpasha (talk) 14:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, Andranikpasha, do not redirect the page until consensus is reached. Once there's a consensus, you should file a request so that the admins could redirect the page. You cannot move the page without using move button. If the page does not move, there's a special procedure for that. Grandmaster (talk) 12:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Thnx I know the rules well! Its Folantin who moved the article without discussions so I shall revert to its original name and then continue discussions! Also pls do not delete sourced info! Andranikpasha (talk) 14:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The name change of this article was a mistake. Tatar and Tartar were both used in English, so claiming that it is English Wikipedia to justify a name change is not a valid argument. It is still called Armenian-Tartar (or Tatar) clash, this is the name it was called and is still called by most. Azerbaijani is a modern identity while Tartar was a heterogeneous group of Turkic people including various Turkmen tribes. Changing the common historical name to another is revisionism and is called original research. VartanM (talk) 20:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

See Britannica:

bloody clashes between Azerbaijanis and local Armenians took place in 1905 and 1918. [8]

Grandmaster (talk) 08:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes Grandmaster, you see they refer to Azeris in a common case, when they talk about a long period included 1918! But they're not use it as a name for these events, as just there werent Azeri name in 1905, see f.e. NYTimes archives. Noone denies the direct relation of Azeris to Tartars, we even added it to article and thats right. We just need true, reliable historiography with correct terms and namings. We need to use the commonly accepted name. Andranikpasha (talk) 09:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It says bloody clashes between Azerbaijanis and local Armenians took place in 1905, how come they do not cover the events of 1905? Do not make such arguments, you have already been warned by an admin for stonewalling the discussions. [9] Grandmaster (talk) 10:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Stop attacking me by the same quote from my talk. Look on your talk and block history to not do it. I marked my view, and I think what you're saying is just a self-interpretation of the text (mark- this source is only one). I prefer a neutral view. Andranikpasha (talk) 11:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Armenian-Tatar War

From what I have see, the article is presently incorrect when it says "also known as the Armenian-Tatar War".

The source does not back this up, as it uses a lowercase "w" which changes its meaning from a proper noun to a run of the mill noun, which means the author is being misquoted:

Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War, by Thomas De Waal (2003)

“ Yet prosperity depended on Russians' keeping order. In 1905, the town fell victim to the violence of the Amerenian-Tartar war. ”

Changing the w to a W is either intentionally misleading, or is extremely lax editing. I do not believe that the mistake can be made without being aware of the difference in meaning it conveys.

The only other two mentions I can find for that term are:

The Red Reign: The True Story of an Adventurous Year in Russia, by Kellogg Durland (1908)

“ Indeed the authorities themselves frequently circulated reports that an

Armenian-Tartar war would presently break out, ...

”

Men are Like that, by Leonard Ramsden Hartill (1928)

“ In the Armenian-Tartar war of 1905 the Armenians had much the better of the fighting.

Many of our men had served in the Russian

”

Again, both of those are using the word "war" as a way to describe the events, rather than a name of the events. John Vandenberg (talk) 13:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think these events have a certain established name. It is up to the editors to choose the most appropriate one. Grandmaster (talk) 13:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

its interesting who changed Armenian-Tatar massacres to War? lets agree the name moving to Armenian-Azeri massacres and other "corrections" by Folantin were undiscussed (surely not "a 100% consensus") and seems to contain POV what I asked earlier. Andranikpasha (talk) 14:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I didnt bother to look who attributed "War" to de Waal, but since you suggested that I look, it turns out it was a group effort. I have rolled back your changes because they were not sourced, and I have tried to copyedit the article to simplify it.

Note that the title is NOT a "{{POV title}}". Whether the title is "Tartar" or "Azeri" is either a matter of preference, which is most common, or it could also be a matter of correctness (the two terms overlap yet it isnt clear exactly which set of peoples were involved in the conflict). All of those are valid reasons to discuss changing the title, but I have not yet seen any arguments related to the neutrality of the title, so the average reader does not need to be warned that the are possible falsehoods hidden within the title. John Vandenberg (talk) 01:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Note: I have just realised that one part of my recent edit summary [10] reduce "War" to "war" per talk is incorrect. I had planned on doing that, but ended up removing "Armenian-Tatar war" as well because the introduction was unnecessarily complicated by having it there. I didnt remove "Armenian-Tatar war" because it was wrong (I have mixed feelings about this) - I removed it because the introduction was too complicated. I have no objections to the term "Armenian-Tatar" going back into the introduction, but I cant quickly see where it can go without complicating things. We need to concentrate on exactly who was involved, which is why I cleaned up the introduction a little -- the second paragraph starts to answer that - saying that it was between Christians and Muslims. John Vandenberg (talk) 02:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Who are we to revise the name of events preferred by most academics? VartanM (talk) 19:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Tatar or Tartar more official term even in modern works

Here is what Google books has to say about this.

Armenian-Tatar

• Armenian-Tatar War [11], [12], [13], [14], [15]

• Armenian-Tatar hostilities [16]

• Armenian-Tatar disorders [17], [18]

• Armenian-Tatar Trife [19]

• Armenian-Tatar Conflict [20]

• Armenian-Tatar clashes [21]

• Armenian-Tatar massacres [22], [23], [24], [25],

Armenian-Tartar

Armenian-Tartar war [26], [27], [28]

Armenian-Tartar fights [29]

Armenian-Tartar butcheries [30]

Armenian-Tartar clashes [31], [32]

Armenian-Tartar massacres [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38], [39]

Armenian-Tartar riots [40]

Armenian-Tartar battles [41]

Armenian-Tartar slaughter [42]

Conclusion

By far, far far, the terms Tatar and Tartar are used more than Azerbaijani, Azeri etc. in the large majority of modern work, and sole term in pre 1919 works. When merging and giving precedence to the most modern works, the word War is first, massacres is second. Normally this should settle the issue, but I doubt it will. VartanM (talk) 21:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, why do you insist that the term Azerbaijani cannot be used when refering to the events of 1905? It is done in the scholarly literature. I have already quoted you Britannica, here’s more:

Bloody ethnic clashes broke out between Azeris and Armenians, and by the end of 1905, two thirds of all oil wells in Baku were destroyed and the entire oil export business had collapsed.

Lutz Kleveman. The New Great Game: Blood and Oil in Central Asia

This was eloquently expressed in their creation and direction of a cultural enlightenment movement that shaped the prewar decades. It was also demonstrated in their efforts to end the Armenian-Azerbaijani violence of 1905.

Audrey L. Altstadt. The Azerbaijani Turks: Power and Identity Under Russian Rule

Even an Armenian source:

Armenian collaboration with Iranian and Caucasian Muslims in the Iranian Constitutional Revolution came less than two years after the violent clashes between the Armenians and Muslims in the Caucasus, sometimes referred to as the Armeno-Tatar wars or the Armeno-Azeri clashes.

Houri Berberian. Armenians and the Iranian Constitutional Revolution, 1905-1911: The Love for Freedom Has No Fatherland

Grandmaster (talk) 07:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, I doubt it will be settled when I am obviously right. I have provided 32 sources above which contains all major works on the topic including De Waal and you answer me with Britannica, the same author of the Columbia encyclopedia entry, also the one who cooked the term Northern and Southern Azerbaijan, which we all know is semantically inaccurate and has been discussed many times, particularly with Iranian members. Basically the claims come from the same single author.

Even an Armenian source, Armenians have no reason to not call them Azerbaijani as it won't make their claims on Artsakh any stronger, why don't you stick to providing sources than adding such insinuations? Also before using this Armenian author you should read the work, it says that Azerbaijan and the identity are recent creation. How does it support you?

Azerbaijani and Tartars are not the same thing, and you know it. Turkmen and other Turkic groups have had a major role in the building of the Azerbaijani identity, Tartars were referred to as a heterogeneous Turkic group, while Azerbaijani is referred to as a homogeneous ethnic group. They are different and even during the first years of the Soviet Union there was a confrontation in the Azerbaijani Academia during the homogenization.

The fact is that most sources either use Tatar or Tartar and here we are in no position to leave out the majority expression to call the event.

Also, you are putting words in my mouth again, I have not said Azerbaijani term should be entirely discarded in articles in the also called, because obviously some do use that term, what I said is that it can not be used as the official term when even in modern works use Tatar or Tartar and for a reason. Again, do we call Romans, Italians?

Lutz Kleveman work has been reviewed as a conspiracy work, if you find it very credible would you let me use some of his conspiracy theories in the article about Azerbaijan? VartanM (talk) 19:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Romans are not Italians, people called Azerbaijani Tatars by Russians are modern day Azerbaijanis. And it does not matter if a certain work is a conspiracy theory or whatever, our dispute is about the usage of the term, and you can see that it is widely used, I can quote a lot more sources if needed. I see no reason for not using the modern ethnonym, while other encyclopedias such as Britannica and Iranica use it. I don't really understand your persistence on the term Tatar, while it is very confusing for the modern reader and the term Azerbaijani is used by all major encyclopedias. Grandmaster (talk) 07:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

My persistence? Mind you, you are the one wanting to suppress the majority position. I already told you that Britannica article highlights that it was only after 1919 that the people there were identified as such. Azeri and Azerbaijani Tartars are not the same thing, there were several Northern Tartar tribes living there, Turkmen and other Turkic groupes. The homogenous Azerbaijani identity was not yet formed. The Turkmens had as much heritage in the elite, and they are the ones who brought the self identification as Azeri, and suppressed other prominent Turkic tribes.

Brushing away history and dismissing the majority position can hardly be considered neutral, nor encyclopedic. Italians are not Romans, the Italians are those who became who they are now after several dynasties and homogenization of the people. What happened in Rome for several centuries happened in Azerbaijan in several decades. VartanM (talk) 18:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Strongly oppose. Whenever you use TaRtar it could be used in historical context, but Tatar proper today is strongly associated only with Volga Tatars. More, during the time of conflict Volga Tatar diaspora already existed in Baku, but no datas about their participation. So, I think Azerbaijani should be used, or (Trans-)Caucasian Tartars, being written inseparable.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 09:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, if you think it is confusing name we can mark in the article that Tartars are the present day Azeris (its done). Anyways this ethnonym wasnt in use in 1905-1907 and the name of Tartar was commonly used both in English and Russian. Anyone (even a "confused" user) if he want to know more he/she should search for Tartars/Tatars not Azeris. Look at for example NYT archives for 1905-1907: there are many detailed materials on massacres, noone of them use the term of Azeri, which doesnt exist in that time (can you find even one material with this name)? Why not, Italians and Romans also have the same roots, does it mean we can cite any uncorrect late sources (or make a self-interpretation) and call Romans Italians? Andranikpasha (talk) 08:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Why should we go with what the sources of 1905 say? We live in the year 2007, let's follow the modern encyclopedias in selection of titles. And VartanM, your OR perception of the ethnogenesis of Azerbaijani people has no place in the article. Whatever was the name used to describe the Azerbaijani people, they were the same people then and now. Grandmaster (talk) 08:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Another source, Encarta encyclopedia:

The influx of Russians and Armenians resulted in a highly segregated city, and violent clashes erupted in 1905 between the city’s Azerbaijani and Armenian communities. [43] Grandmaster (talk) 08:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Lets not follow them? Lets follow what most scholars say? Modern? How many times should I say that MOST modern scholars call it Armenian-Tatar war, massacre etc. including Brenda Shaffer, De Waal etc. I also told you that the article written by Iranica can not support your thesis for the simple reason because it uses Azerbaijani, Persian scholars who have another theory on their ethnogenesis. And since when did Suny become credible for you? When he supports your arguments? You can not have it both ways, either he is credible or isn't credible at all.

My perception? Grandmaster why are you saying things which you know are not true? The Turks of Turkey, Azerbaijan and the Turkmen were originally Oghus Turks who arrived from what is today Turkmenistan. The Turkic people of Azerbaijan were pushed there by the Mongols incursions in Turkmenistan. The Gagauz or Khalaj and several Tartar groups were living there and were distinct ethnogenesis before the self identification and homogenization of the people as Azerbaijani. Ak Koyunlu or any other Turkic federations and movement following there were Turkmen in origin and had their distinct identity. It will be clearly misleading to exclude the Turkmen in the pre-1919 history when probably a significant number of the people there were still identifying themselves as Turkmen. Several other groups who were largely using Turkic as their first language like the Talysh were also qualified as Tartars.

Encarta article, are you kidding me? we know what would have happened to the half Armenian, had he used the correct term Tatar, Adil Baguirov, Javid Huseynov and the team would have bombarded Encarta with letters requesting his head, which was already what happened prior with the entry on the Armenian genocide[44].

Face it, modern or pre-1919, most sources call the people having lived there before 1919 as Tartars. You have not answered why we don't call Romans as Italians, Phrygians as Armenians and so on.VartanM (talk) 02:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I already explained you that Romans are not Italians, while people referred to as Azerbaijani Tatars in the past are the same people as Azerbaijanis. They spoke the same language, had the same traditions and religion, while Italians and Romans are different in many aspects. And we do not live in 1919, we live in 2007 and should use the modern terms. And you provided no evidence about influence of Adil or anyone else on the texts of the articles that I quoted. We should do the same as other encyclopedias do, i.e. use the modern terms. Grandmaster (talk) 07:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

We actually use contemporary terms. Caesar went to Gaul, not France. As for so called "Azerbaijanis," identity is much more than religion and language. The ancestors of modern "Azeris" were a conglomerate of various Turkic speaking nomadic tribes with no unifying identity. The idea to label them "Azerbaijanis" was a pan-Turkic and later Soviet attempt for pure political reasons. If the Republic of Azerbaijan splits into several parts, within a few decades the people within each will be identified by their localities instead of the fictional ethnonym "Azerbaijani."--TigranTheGreat (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

That is just your original research, isn't it? We should use the same term as other modern encyclopedias do. Grandmaster (talk) 06:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Tigran, enough with the OR. Inuits used to be officially referred to as Eskimos before the 1980s. The introduction of the term Inuit doesn't mean Eskimos perished and all of a sudden a whole new ethnic group emerged out of thin air. You know well that your Gaul example is irrelevant. Gaul's relation to France is like the Caucasian Albanians' relation to Azeris. There is no factual substance in any serious scientific research that what you claim about "Tatars not being Azeris" can be true. Germans did not feel like a unified ethnic group and society prior to 1870 identifying rather as Bavarians, Swabians, Saxons, etc. Italians too were not considered politically or socially a single ethnic group until the unification of Italy in the late 1800s and tended to identify as the Genoese, Venetians, Sicilians, etc. However those who they were comprised of shared common origins, language, culture, values, religion, and heritage, which led others to perceive them then and today as single ethnic units, whose origins date way longer ago than the end of the 19th century. And we do not see people arguing that Dante wasn't Italian and Bach wasn't German, and they belonged to completely different ethnic groups that chose to mysteriously disappear at some point in the 19th century. Parishan (talk) 06:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thats alot of OR Parishan, care to comment on the 32 sources I provided!!! You guys really have to come with the terms that Azerbaijan as a nation didn't exist before 1918. VartanM (talk) 06:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Very good point, Parishan. And VartanM, see all the major modern encyclopedias. Grandmaster (talk) 06:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Show 'em to me VartanM (talk) 06:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

They are here and on talk of Shusha. Britannica, Encarta, Iranica. Grandmaster (talk) 07:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I have already addressed those. I'm not gonna repeat myself. VartanM (talk) 07:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Vartan, providing 32 sources where the word Tatar is mentioned doesn't mean "Tatars and Azeris are two different, in no way related ethnic groups." Parishan (talk) 06:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Clearly you didn't read them. VartanM (talk) 06:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

You've got yourself confused. The sources were to prove the usage of the word Ta(r)tar, not to deny that they are the same people as Azeris. A nation is not the same as an ethnic group. It is a whole different notion. We cannot talk in terms of nations in this article, because the two parties were not associated with two different societies or states (see the Nation article for further explanation). An ethnic group, according to the respective Wiki-article, "is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry." You go ahead and prove that whomever Armenians had mutual massacres with in 1905–1907 did not share common geneology or ancestry with Azeris, because I can present sources that prove otherwise in a heartbit. Parishan (talk) 06:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I think you are the confused one here. nation is not the same as an ethnic group Exactly, there were and still are many different ethinic groups in Azerbaijan. And its wrong and to throw them all in a same bag just to create a false sense of nationhood and history. Majority of academician call the event Armenian-Tatar and thats end of it VartanM (talk) 07:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Another source, the one VartanM quoted on other articles:

In the aftermath of the communal violence between Armenians and Azerbaijanis in 1905, this aristocracy became a significant rallying force for Azerbaijani nationalism.

Michael P. Croissant. The Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict: Causes and Implications

Grandmaster (talk) 07:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is one I presented here

The so called Armenian-Tatar war - a terrible outbreak characterized by massacre, reprisal both in the city and country side, with local authorities apparently unable or unwilling to restore order.

A. Holly Shissler. Between Two Empires: Ahmet Agaoglu and the New Turkey

VartanM (talk) 07:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

And another one.

Muslim worksers in the Baku region, for example, were sappareted from the more skilled Armenian workers, not only by wage differentials and class cultures, but also by their memoirs of the "Armenian-Tatar war" of 1915

Rex A. Wade. Revolutionary Russia: New Approaches

Do you need more? VartanM (talk) 07:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Tatar was the name give by outsiders. Both Armenians and Azeris at that time called it Armenian-Muslim Clashes (Ermeni-Muselman Davasi). With Vartan's logic, we have to rename it to Armenian-Muslim Massacres... Both Muslim and Tatar are not clarifying who were these Moslems or Tatars. They were not all the Moslems around the world and they definately were not Kazan or Crimean Tatars. Who were they? Azeri or Azerbaijani are the two best terms to clarify this part of the history.--Aynabend (talk) 07:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

No Vartan's logic is to call it what majority of academics call it. VartanM (talk) 07:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I have a different quote from Shissler:

In Baku and in other cities and villages of the Caucasus the Azerbaijani-Armenian violence escalated throughout the summer and fall of 1905.

And more:

The Russians then proceeded to instigate the Armeno-Azerbaijani* conflict, which lasted for two years (1905-1907).

James Stuart Olson, Lee Brigance Pappas, Nicholas Charles. An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of the Russian and Soviet Empires

An Azerbaijani political organization that had sonic influence among the people was the group Difai (Defense), founded in Ganje in 1905 in the aftermath of the Azerbaijani-Armenian War.

Firouzeh Mostashari. On the Religious Frontier: Tsarist Russia and Islam in the Caucasus

I can provide tons of sources on Armenian – Azerbaijani. So as you can see this is what modern academics call it, including all major encyclopedias. Grandmaster (talk) 07:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I can do the same. VartanM (talk) 07:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Then why should we use Tatar, if none of the modern encyclopedias uses that term? Grandmaster (talk) 08:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Why should we use the Azeri term when majority of academicians use Tatar? 08:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by VartanM (talk • contribs)

We don't know that. That's your assumption. The claims of consensus need to be sourced, and you provided no source claiming that this is what majority call it. Why are you edit warring, moving the page without consensus? Grandmaster (talk) 08:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, the people called Tatars (or Azerbaijani Tatars actually with references back to late 19th century), are generally identified as Azeris, while Tatars are a different nation residing in central part of Russia, Republic of Tatarstan. So to avoid confusion in encyclopedic article, it's important to highlight that those massacres were part of Armenian-Azeri conflict. I doubt anyone would call this into question, and given the mutual nature of the atrocities, I don't understand why there is an argument about the title at all? Atabek (talk) 08:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, please do not switch to personal attacks by calling me a "meatpuppet" and disclosing personal information, such as old user's name. You probably know what consequence it can lead to. Please assume a good faith and concentrate on the subject, not on personalities. The former can take us to the consensus and therefore, do nor revert without it. --Aynabend (talk) 08:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

When you act like a meatpuppet, you can't hide behind the good faith rule. We have to have a way to identify puppets if they disrupt articles. We are not saying you have bad intentions, so we are not assuming bad faith, just commenting on your behavior. And everyone knows you are user Ulvi I, it's no longer a personal information.

By the way, the Volga Tatar line of argument is irrelevant. The term "Tatar," just like the term "Indian," was applied to the nomadic remnants of Turkic-Mongol invasions that were related but had no unified identity. This included the Tatars of Caucasus. When we talk about the Indian wars in the US, noone confuses them with natives of South America. So, no confusion is possible here either.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 11:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)