Talk:Chronology of Shakespeare's plays

Early histories (Henry VI plays)

Isn't the currently dominant view that 2H6 (The First Part of the Contention) is the earliest play entirely or partly written by Shakespeare? I think it is widely accepted that the histories were arranged in the First Folio in historical sequence to form consistent tetralogies rather than according to the chronology of their creation. Since the article aims to present "the plays in the generally accepted order" (a highly questionable aim in itself, since much in this case is still generally controversial rather than "generally accepted") I suggest editing to the following order: 2H6, 3H6, 1H6. Are there any objections?S.Camus 09:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that is absolutely correct, and more generally this list needs citations, since, as you say, much of it is open to debate. The Singing Badger 11:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I'd agree that the currently dominant view is that 1H6 postdated 2H6 and 3H6. I don't think it necessarily follows that it was the first play. I'm sure I can source people who think TGV is in pole position, for example. AndyJones 13:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, really we need to dig out the evidence for this stuff. There's a reason why 1H6 is believed to postdate the other two; let's state more reasons in this article. It's too vague at the moment. The Singing Badger 17:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with AndyJones. The Taming of the Shrew, among others, has also been proposed as earliest. On the whole, it is significantly less tricky to order Shakespeare plays within a single genre than across genres, so even though 2H6 may not be number one, it may still be considered as the first of the three Henry VI plays and probably of the histories too. Does that mean this entry should feature two chronologies: one genre by genre and a more tentative general one? S.Camus 18:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that splitting by genre would help. Still, listing the chronology remains a fundamentally flawed aim, since many of the plays are so vaguely and uncertainly dated that a simple list gives a misleading sense of clarity. It's a tricky problem needing an imaginative solution! The Singing Badger 18:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I would chuck the precise dates. Something like The Two Gentlemen of Verona, for example, is dated anywhere from 1589 to 1594, depending on what book you read, with I think recent opinion gravitating toward the earlier end. Right now the article just says "1594," without even a circa to imply a smidgen of hedging & doubt. Hedge, people! We've got to go wobbly. I think having two chronologies like S. Camus suggested is a great idea. Eupolis 19:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Edward III?

Why isn't this listed in the misattribution section? john k (talk) 21:06, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree the play should be listed in this article, but with the most recent analysis by Vickers, combined with earlier scholars, as well as Sams, it should probably be listed under the Possible Collaborations section. Also, according to the play's article here on WP, "In the Textual Companion to the Oxford Complete Works of Shakespeare, Gary Taylor states that "of all the non-canonical plays, [Edward III] has the strongest claim to inclusion in the Complete Works" (the play was subsequently edited by William Montgomery and included in the second edition of the Oxford Complete Works, 2005). Smatprt (talk) 06:15, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Fringe chronology

This material does not belong in this article. Please see WP:DUE, WP:OR, and WP:ONEWAY.

To answer your question, I would have the references support each sentence of this in a prominent manner while discussing the chronology of Shakespeare's plays, i.e. not en passant while mainly discussing some other related topic. You really need to learn what reliable sources are. You can't use a passing mention as a reference. See here: [1], "Article statements generally should not rely on unclear or inconsistent passages nor on passing comments."

"While most scholars have adopted a generally accepted order (see below), many dates continue to be debated and all dates should be taken as highly speculative. A number of orthodox scholars, as well as many anti-Stratfordian researchers (so called because they argue that someone other than William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon was the author of the Shakespearean canon, disagree with the conventional dating (dissenting view: Chronology of Shakespeare's plays – Oxfordian).[1][2][3][4]"

So take each sentence and quote the supporting text from each source. Otherwise, stop reverting. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:57, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

It seems misleading to suppress this information. The reader needs to know that this chronology is not universally supported by scholars. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Your complaint is with Wikipedia policy. The information is not being suppressed; it has its place in the Oxfordian article. The chronology is actually argued among Shakespearean scholars, but a general consensus has developed, and in any case the fact that Shakespeareans do not agree on every detail is no argument that someone else wrote the plays. Tom Reedy (talk) 15:31, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

That argument is not being made. If that is not clear then I have no problem tweaking the sentence to make that clarification. And providing more sources should also not be a problem. But this is an example of what is becoming an issue - you are requiring sources for statements that do not require them. You know perfectly well that the chronology of the plays is a key ingredient in the great majority of authorship debates. You also know that the issue has been responded to by every major stratfordian critic - Matus even has an entire chapter on it. You are well studied in authorship matters, so you are aware of all this. Demanding sources is required for "controversial" and potentially untrue statements. This is not the case here and you know this. So to "take each sentence and quote the supporting text from each source", as you demand, is simply overkill. As I said though, providing some additional sources will not be difficult, but at some point in our dispute resolution, there needs to be a discussion about what material really needs sourcing and what does not. Smatprt (talk) 15:52, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Every contentious statement requires sources. And as I said, sources that mention the topic only in passing (suach as the Newsweek article) are not acceptable. And yes, you need to support every statement with a quote from the sources, because your statements are not in them. You seem to think you can google up any web site using a few terms and that should be good enough. I concede that it's good enough for most anti-Stratfordians, but Wikipedia standards are somewhat higher. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:31, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I have begun referencing now. I ref'd to Sams for the first statement and supplied the requested quote, and Matus for the last (quote coming). I ref to Newsweek for the word "revisionist" but Matus covers the rest.Smatprt (talk) 20:18, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Where's the attempt to justify

On talk the injection of this mostly amateuyrish speculation. Anyone vaguely familiar with the full range of Shakespearean scholarship will understand that the mainstream has no real fixed conviction on the dating of most pieces, controversy is continuous. I see no need to throw in junk from the quarterbaked speculative trivia of non-university self-published, or website based, or newspaper article sourced, theories. This 'dissent' is from identifiably fringe sources, and unless one can bolster the argument with arguments from maverick scholars of some standing like Sams, it shouldn't be here.SSilvers habitually reverts without giving solid argued grounds, as though an edit summary of his viewpoint were sufficient justification. There are serious wikipedian principles at stake, or under challenge, and as an administrator you should take them more seriously. Nishidani (talk) 20:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Look, you are continually playing as if the fringe theory were not such, and therefore, on the strength of one or two newspaper articles in the NYTs, you edit in this dubious, poorly sourced, hodgepodge of amateurish conjecture as though it were part of the debate. The intense inframural scholarly debates on chronology over the years allow for considerable elasticity in dating: I fail to see where this fiction that there is some mainstream consensus on details as troublesome as playdating is grounded in good sourcing. You are trying to set up a contrast that does not exist, between an 'orthodox' and an 'dissident' school, both on an equal intellectual footing, which simply does not exist historically. So, do the right thing procedurally, and put your research and edit position onto the talk page where it can be discussed, and analysed, instead of just trying to grab ground on the article with edits that are by their very nature controversial, and prpobably flawed in their procedural contempt for the distinction between WP:RS and WP:fringe.Nishidani (talk) 20:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

No, I referenced to Matus. More to come, as well. Frankly, this has been the stable version for months, if not years. If you want to build a consensus to have it removed, then go ahead and give it a try. But until you do so, you have no unilateral right to simply delete long-standing material that has gone unchallenged for so long.Smatprt (talk) 20:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

There's loads of longstanding material that reflects ignorance by editors of what POV warriors are doing on wiki, rather than consensus. The fact that bad ideas abound for years on numerous articles is no justification for allowing them the status of consensus. Where on the talk page archives was this agreed to, in an open debate between the fringers and representatives of mainstream scholarship?Nishidani (talk) 20:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Having watched this debate develop for a few days, I gotta say, I fail to see what all the excitement is about. I agree completely with Smatprt. The stuff is referenced, is relevant, and is scholarship. Just because something is deemed scholarship doesn't mean it's any good (you should read some of the crap my PhD supervisor wrote). I also think the article reads better with the material under discussion in rather than out. In actual fact, if you're goingto question anything about this article, I'd question the entire existence of the article as a whole. It's not very good, contains no real information that can't be found elsewhere in more detail, and it's chronological organisation of the plays seems arbitrary at best, with no evidence whatsoever for the vast majority of them. But as it stands, as an article, I just don't understand all this foolishness about whether or not the fringe theory should be in or out. Of course it should. Whether you agree with what it says or not, whether you think it's good scholarship or not. Bertaut (talk) 21:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)