Talk:Chronology of Shakespeare's plays

Early histories (Henry VI plays)

Isn't the currently dominant view that 2H6 (The First Part of the Contention) is the earliest play entirely or partly written by Shakespeare? I think it is widely accepted that the histories were arranged in the First Folio in historical sequence to form consistent tetralogies rather than according to the chronology of their creation. Since the article aims to present "the plays in the generally accepted order" (a highly questionable aim in itself, since much in this case is still generally controversial rather than "generally accepted") I suggest editing to the following order: 2H6, 3H6, 1H6. Are there any objections?S.Camus 09:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that is absolutely correct, and more generally this list needs citations, since, as you say, much of it is open to debate. The Singing Badger 11:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I'd agree that the currently dominant view is that 1H6 postdated 2H6 and 3H6. I don't think it necessarily follows that it was the first play. I'm sure I can source people who think TGV is in pole position, for example. AndyJones 13:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, really we need to dig out the evidence for this stuff. There's a reason why 1H6 is believed to postdate the other two; let's state more reasons in this article. It's too vague at the moment. The Singing Badger 17:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with AndyJones. The Taming of the Shrew, among others, has also been proposed as earliest. On the whole, it is significantly less tricky to order Shakespeare plays within a single genre than across genres, so even though 2H6 may not be number one, it may still be considered as the first of the three Henry VI plays and probably of the histories too. Does that mean this entry should feature two chronologies: one genre by genre and a more tentative general one? S.Camus 18:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that splitting by genre would help. Still, listing the chronology remains a fundamentally flawed aim, since many of the plays are so vaguely and uncertainly dated that a simple list gives a misleading sense of clarity. It's a tricky problem needing an imaginative solution! The Singing Badger 18:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I would chuck the precise dates. Something like The Two Gentlemen of Verona, for example, is dated anywhere from 1589 to 1594, depending on what book you read, with I think recent opinion gravitating toward the earlier end. Right now the article just says "1594," without even a circa to imply a smidgen of hedging & doubt. Hedge, people! We've got to go wobbly. I think having two chronologies like S. Camus suggested is a great idea. Eupolis 19:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Edward III?

Why isn't this listed in the misattribution section? john k (talk) 21:06, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree the play should be listed in this article, but with the most recent analysis by Vickers, combined with earlier scholars, as well as Sams, it should probably be listed under the Possible Collaborations section. Also, according to the play's article here on WP, "In the Textual Companion to the Oxford Complete Works of Shakespeare, Gary Taylor states that "of all the non-canonical plays, [Edward III] has the strongest claim to inclusion in the Complete Works" (the play was subsequently edited by William Montgomery and included in the second edition of the Oxford Complete Works, 2005). Smatprt (talk) 06:15, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Fringe chronology

This material does not belong in this article. Please see WP:DUE, WP:OR, and WP:ONEWAY.

To answer your question, I would have the references support each sentence of this in a prominent manner while discussing the chronology of Shakespeare's plays, i.e. not en passant while mainly discussing some other related topic. You really need to learn what reliable sources are. You can't use a passing mention as a reference. See here: [1], "Article statements generally should not rely on unclear or inconsistent passages nor on passing comments."

"While most scholars have adopted a generally accepted order (see below), many dates continue to be debated and all dates should be taken as highly speculative. A number of orthodox scholars, as well as many anti-Stratfordian researchers (so called because they argue that someone other than William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon was the author of the Shakespearean canon, disagree with the conventional dating (dissenting view: Chronology of Shakespeare's plays – Oxfordian).[1][2][3][4]"

So take each sentence and quote the supporting text from each source. Otherwise, stop reverting. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:57, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

It seems misleading to suppress this information. The reader needs to know that this chronology is not universally supported by scholars. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Your complaint is with Wikipedia policy. The information is not being suppressed; it has its place in the Oxfordian article. The chronology is actually argued among Shakespearean scholars, but a general consensus has developed, and in any case the fact that Shakespeareans do not agree on every detail is no argument that someone else wrote the plays. Tom Reedy (talk) 15:31, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

That argument is not being made. If that is not clear then I have no problem tweaking the sentence to make that clarification. And providing more sources should also not be a problem. But this is an example of what is becoming an issue - you are requiring sources for statements that do not require them. You know perfectly well that the chronology of the plays is a key ingredient in the great majority of authorship debates. You also know that the issue has been responded to by every major stratfordian critic - Matus even has an entire chapter on it. You are well studied in authorship matters, so you are aware of all this. Demanding sources is required for "controversial" and potentially untrue statements. This is not the case here and you know this. So to "take each sentence and quote the supporting text from each source", as you demand, is simply overkill. As I said though, providing some additional sources will not be difficult, but at some point in our dispute resolution, there needs to be a discussion about what material really needs sourcing and what does not. Smatprt (talk) 15:52, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Every contentious statement requires sources. And as I said, sources that mention the topic only in passing (suach as the Newsweek article) are not acceptable. And yes, you need to support every statement with a quote from the sources, because your statements are not in them. You seem to think you can google up any web site using a few terms and that should be good enough. I concede that it's good enough for most anti-Stratfordians, but Wikipedia standards are somewhat higher. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:31, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I have begun referencing now. I ref'd to Sams for the first statement and supplied the requested quote, and Matus for the last (quote coming). I ref to Newsweek for the word "revisionist" but Matus covers the rest.Smatprt (talk) 20:18, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Where's the attempt to justify

On talk the injection of this mostly amateuyrish speculation. Anyone vaguely familiar with the full range of Shakespearean scholarship will understand that the mainstream has no real fixed conviction on the dating of most pieces, controversy is continuous. I see no need to throw in junk from the quarterbaked speculative trivia of non-university self-published, or website based, or newspaper article sourced, theories. This 'dissent' is from identifiably fringe sources, and unless one can bolster the argument with arguments from maverick scholars of some standing like Sams, it shouldn't be here.SSilvers habitually reverts without giving solid argued grounds, as though an edit summary of his viewpoint were sufficient justification. There are serious wikipedian principles at stake, or under challenge, and as an administrator you should take them more seriously. Nishidani (talk) 20:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Look, you are continually playing as if the fringe theory were not such, and therefore, on the strength of one or two newspaper articles in the NYTs, you edit in this dubious, poorly sourced, hodgepodge of amateurish conjecture as though it were part of the debate. The intense inframural scholarly debates on chronology over the years allow for considerable elasticity in dating: I fail to see where this fiction that there is some mainstream consensus on details as troublesome as playdating is grounded in good sourcing. You are trying to set up a contrast that does not exist, between an 'orthodox' and an 'dissident' school, both on an equal intellectual footing, which simply does not exist historically. So, do the right thing procedurally, and put your research and edit position onto the talk page where it can be discussed, and analysed, instead of just trying to grab ground on the article with edits that are by their very nature controversial, and prpobably flawed in their procedural contempt for the distinction between WP:RS and WP:fringe.Nishidani (talk) 20:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

No, I referenced to Matus. More to come, as well. Frankly, this has been the stable version for months, if not years. If you want to build a consensus to have it removed, then go ahead and give it a try. But until you do so, you have no unilateral right to simply delete long-standing material that has gone unchallenged for so long.Smatprt (talk) 20:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

There's loads of longstanding material that reflects ignorance by editors of what POV warriors are doing on wiki, rather than consensus. The fact that bad ideas abound for years on numerous articles is no justification for allowing them the status of consensus. Where on the talk page archives was this agreed to, in an open debate between the fringers and representatives of mainstream scholarship?Nishidani (talk) 20:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Having watched this debate develop for a few days, I gotta say, I fail to see what all the excitement is about. I agree completely with Smatprt. The stuff is referenced, is relevant, and is scholarship. Just because something is deemed scholarship doesn't mean it's any good (you should read some of the crap my PhD supervisor wrote). I also think the article reads better with the material under discussion in rather than out. In actual fact, if you're goingto question anything about this article, I'd question the entire existence of the article as a whole. It's not very good, contains no real information that can't be found elsewhere in more detail, and it's chronological organisation of the plays seems arbitrary at best, with no evidence whatsoever for the vast majority of them. But as it stands, as an article, I just don't understand all this foolishness about whether or not the fringe theory should be in or out. Of course it should. Whether you agree with what it says or not, whether you think it's good scholarship or not. Bertaut (talk) 21:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

It is also rather fringe, and we have tried and tested methods for handling fringe material. This addition isn't in line with those. For myself, I'd have no problem with a mention in the footnotery. Mileage may vary. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:57, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the article is not very good and that PhDs are often doltish, but either Wikipedia has standards or it does not. If it does, either they should be adhered to or it might as well not have any. This particular fringe theory operates mostly on promotion, because there is no evidence whatsoever (in the sense used by professional scholars) supporting it. IOW, it's claptrap. There are places on Wikipedia for it, but not in the main articles.

The idea that every topic should have equal time on every venue imaginable is a perversion of a good idea—tolerance for diverse ideas and people—begun back in the 1960s that rapidly degenerated into political correctness. Anti-Stratfordians (and not just them; others are equally as guilty) are masters at manipulating those ideas to try to make it appear that their theory should have parity with the scholarly consensus, and that's just not true.

I tolerate diversity, in both ideas and people. In fact, I love cranks such as anti-Stratfordians and I think they can teach us a lot about all kinds of things, not the least of which is the thin line between crankery and genius (although I've never met an anti-Stratfordian genius, unless I just couldn't recognize it in Roger Nyle Parisious). But that is far from the stated purpose of Wikipedia, and the stated purpose of Wikipedia should be the purpose of Wikipedians. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:24, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I need to point out to Angusmclellan that according to your edit summary, you referred to "adding" the material. This material has been in the article for quite some time and was never challenged or controversial. What is going on here is the deletion of consensus material. You also are under the impression that the references are "anti-Stratfordian". This is incorrect. The sources are all independent and all mainstream, which brings them into compliance with the requirements. I believe I am following the policy correctly.

I also want to say that I have no problem if this section is tweaked or recast, but to simply delete the material all together goes against what, in my opinion, Wikipedia is all about. Wiki policies and guidelines generally prefer the retention of material. WP:IMPROVE is a good policy to review in this matter. Smatprt (talk) 02:13, 14 April 2010 (UTC).

Also, as I mentioned, this material has been in the article for quite a while. If you want to challenge its place, the discussion should have started here on this page. Just deleting it without notice did nothing but start an edit war. The material should remain in the article until this discussion is over and a decision is reached on whether to leave it, improve it, or delete it. Smatprt (talk) 02:36, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't make any difference how long the material has been in the article, Smatprt. When I deleted it no source was provided, and none of the sources you've provided since are acceptable to Wikipedia policies. the reason why you keep trying to insert them is because you really don't understand the policies. I'll put together a short refresher tomorrow and hopefully you can come up to snuff on exactly how it works. And no amount of pointing at other wrong entries justifies anything. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:35, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Tom - please see [[2]]. This is what I was referring to. When an edit is made and is not challenged for a deal of time, it represents the new consensus. (See the chart if you have a hard time with this concept!). Of course it can be challenged later with an attempt to build a new consensus. But right now there are 3 editors arguing for deletion and 3 editors arguing for keeping the status quo. Obviously, there is nothing even approaching a consensus to make this change (in this case, the deletion you are proposing). As far as Tom's "There is no such thing as a "consensus version" of a non-FA article", left elsewhere on these pages, sometimes I really have to wonder if you just make this stuff up! Or what policy are you pretending to quote? Smatprt (talk) 22:23, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, this running to clean up messes gets me hot under the collar at times. My real objection is that (a) there is a vast, abundant, scholarly literature on Shakespeare, brim full with conjectures on chronology, and contentiousness is the rule, but that (b) little of this is harvested, or perhaps even known by the one omnipresent editor for the de Verean crankery who spends too much time jumping from article to article jiggering in poor material from the sacred revelation and (c)instead, when countered, keeps wikilawyering, article to article, to get round several fundamental objections to what others, like Tom and myself, see as a self-promotional operation on wikipedia to broadcast and obtain recognition for what is a fringe theory, which after 90 years, still has yet to provide the academic and the real broader world of ideas with one skerrick of verifiable information, as opposed to 'the de Verean' dissidence.

(d) So, on a page like this, which needs substantial work on it, the basic raw data, easily culled from scholarly books, is never troubled with a glance by Smatprt, even though (e)procedurally, editing this page up to wiki snuff is quite simple since (f)all one need do is take one's personal copies of the (i)Oxford (ii)Cambridge and/or (iii)Arden editions of the complete plays (37 odd volumes for each series, I'm sure we all have these basic texts) and (g) consult for each entry or play the up-to-date commentaries on the chronological debate and footnote the relevant information.

(h)for example, you take the Cambridge edition of Hamlet edited by John Dover Wilson (2nd ed.1936)1960 reprint pp.xvi-xxxii): the Oxford edition of Hamlet, ed.G.R.Hibbard, 1967 pp.3.14: and the Arden edition of Hamlet eds. Ann Thompson and Neil Taylor, 2006 pp.43-59 and footnote the play with the range of chronological speculation contained in those three representative editions.

That is how this is done academically, or by undergraduates in English courses to comply with the basic methods of secondary source review. Rather than waste people's time with arbitrary cites from ìsecondary or tertiary sources taken casually from who knows where, one hews to this simple method, and enriches the wiki page. Once that is done, if, of course, something has been missed of importance from the secondary literature on chronology, which has however been picked up by a fringe source, you can suggest certainly that this be included. But not before the basic homework has been done.

We edit here as a service to the global public, not to push our own fringe ideological beefs about a conspiracy or cover-up which ostensibly hides from that public what is in fact either irrelevant as information, or already adequately surveyed, vetted and evaluated by thousands of standard university press works on Shakespeare, who is the most comprehensively and qualitatively documented (WP:RS) writer in history. There is no place on these pages for the junk speculations of self-published, or cult-published amateurs. Nishidani (talk) 08:27, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Seems to me Nishidani that you don't agree/like the authorship fringe theory (or crankery as you objectively put it), therefore it's not worthy of being mentioned. Personally, I also think it's complete bull. But, like I said before, the fact is it exists, it IS scholarship (like it or not) therefore it is worthy of mention. I really do not understand what the debate is all about. And for your accusations regarding Smatprt's editing being some sort of "a self-promotional operation on wikipedia to broadcast and obtain recognition for what is a fringe theory." Let's not get silly now. Bertaut (talk) 16:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Of course I think it's a load of cobblers, but so does every scholar with a decent grounding in the Elizabethan area, many of whom are on record of speaking of 'madness', 'lunacy' 'crankiness' and 'speculative folly' (Schoenbaum, Quennell, Quiller-Couch, etc.etc.). That's what RS say, and I follow RS, whatever my personal beliefs may be.

That you can write 'it exists, it IS scholarship' is not grounded in any RS (except in the vulgar ciphered sense of being rodent's excrement) I am familiar with and constitutes a non-sequitur, which, to boot, reflects your own personal opinion. Something is 'scholarship' when it produces original research that the scholarly world recognizes as such, which is not the case here. To challenge me for voicing my personal opinions, and then, volte-face, counter by voicing your own opinion, which contradicts what you declared earlier, is a remarkable piece of illogical wizardry. For, in the world of propositional logic, you cannot get away with saying a 'fringe theory' is 'complete bull' and then justify it the next second by saying it is 'scholarship', unless of course your Venn diagram of 'scholarship' includes large lumps of unadulterated crap imbricated over pure theory. ya know wod I mean, guv? It just ain't logical to reprove me in this humpty-dumpty manner, though of course I know a lot of people are watching a film called 'Alice in Blunderland'. Oh, and of course, it is pure promotion. They have nothing to show, except a list of famous names, none of whom have done anything for Shakespearean or Elizabethan scholarship. The whole game is one of dropping names to get street credibility, which they use as leverage to scream for recognition from the ivory tower. It's a stunt, and those who push it are well, ya must admire their chutzpah and John Waynish grit, stuntmen. James Joyce would think of stunnedmen. Paul Newman or Robert Redford of stungmen. Nishidani (talk) 17:19, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Removing highly dubious material

I've removed for the nth time, Smatprt's material.

Dissenting viewpoints

While all dating should be taken as highly speculative, numerous scholars have adopted a generally accepted chronological ordering (see below). A number of independent researchers, however, disagree with the conventional dating and many specific dates continue to be debated.

A dissenting view also comes from many anti-Stratfordian researchers, who assert that someone other than William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon was the author of the Shakespearean canon. In particular, the Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship relies on an alternate chronology that is earlier than traditionally accepted.

Smatprt does not understand what one is asking for when demanding articles be sourced to WP:RS. Irvin Leigh Matus may defend a 'mainstream perspective' and while doing so, analyse the bizarre material on chronology in the de Verean fringe, but he is not a scholar. He is, like 99% of the de Verean fellowship, an independent, unqualified outside researcher, who has written journalism and a book attacking the fringe perspective of Oxfordian 'theory'. This makes him a source for any article on the de Verean theory, but does not make him a source for a page which deals with the technical history of fixing the chronology of Shakespeare's plays, which has a huge technical, eminently RS, literature dating back a century and more. The only thing I have noticed is that Smatprt reverted three or four times in a day the edits by others which challenged his exploitation of this material, failed to argue his case, as he was asked to do, on the talk page, and simply, once the 24 hour limit had expired, reintroduced it in the article, as if nothing had happened in the meantime, inviting an edit-war. I ask him therefore to iron this disagreement out on the talk page, and justify it to obtain some consensus before unilaterally plunking his controversial intrusion of what is, whether sourced to Matus or not, material that lacks an optimal RS qualification, as that is commonly understood, i.e., a book published under a respectable university imprint by a ranking mainstream scholar of Elizabethan and Shakespearian problems. Nishidani (talk) 08:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Disagree that Matus is not RS for the statement in question. I've answered your objections. You don't agree with those answers and continue to challenge sources, but that is not going to change, and you appear unwilling to compromise, or even consider the suggestions of other editors. Given the situation, I don't see how to proceed other than to continue editing and wait for input from the appropriate notice boards. Smatprt (talk) 16:15, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Opinion noted, but you haven't answered any objections. I don't compromise with fringe invasions of articles that can be perfectly edited according to the wide, copious resources of mainstream scholarship. By 'continue to edit' I gather you intend an edit-war, in lieu of a clarification, not yet forthcoming, of whether or not the de Verean claptrap is a minority, as opposed to a fringe view? Minority views, such as Honigmann's, have a place here. The views of self-published amateurs with no academic credentials, espousing a fringe viewpoint, have no place in wikipedia's ambition to provide the best up-to-date scholarly sources for its articles. Nishidani (talk) 16:45, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite

I got so sick of this foolishness that I started messing about rewriting the enitre introduction, and you can see what I've come up with. Only one brief sentence about anti-Strafordians, with a link to the main article for people who want to know more, and a more comprehensive overview of the plays as a whole. I'm sure everyone won't like it, but it's certainly better than what was there before, either with or without the contentious paragraph. The chronology itself could actually do with a complete rewrite as well (why is Edward III not in the main section for example - Cambridge, Oxford, Norton, Arden and Riverside all include it; and why does The Two Gentlemen of Verona come so late? Why no mention that 2 Henry VI and 3 Henry VI could have been written prior to 1 Henry VI?), but I don't have the time for that now, maybe at some stage in the future. Bertaut (talk) 15:13, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'm now convinced that you simply don't want any mention of anti-Stratford theories anywhere on Wikipedia. I'vee reduced it to one small sentence and you're still not happy. Are you planning on going to go through every single page on Wikipedia and deleting all references to the fringe theory. And in any case, the footnote isn't a citation nor is it being offered as evidence, it's a reference for more information, which I've used on numerous other pages before, and I've seen used on many other pages, and I've never ever encounrered any objection. Guy, you seriously need to relax (and I mean that good naturedly). How about everyone else, is the current rewrite (with the brief anti-Sratfordian reference) okay? If most people think it should be gone, then that's ok. But at the moment, there's two people think it should stay and only one who thinks it should be gone. Bertaut (talk) 16:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite part 2

On a completely uprelated point to the above mentioned festivites, I've been messing around with the chronology section of the article, and I've come up with a very rough draft of a possible template for each play:

• The Two Gentlemen of Verona (1589-1591)

  First official record: mentioned in Francis Meres' Palladis Tamia: Wits Treasury (1598)

  First published: First Folio (1623)

  First recorded performance: an adaptation of the play by Benjamin Victor was performed at the David Garrick's Theatre Royal, Drury Lane in 1762. (reference here) The earliest known performance of the straight Shakespearean text was at the Royal Opera House in Covent Garden in 1784. (reference here)

  Evidence: The play contains passages which seem to borrow from John Lyly's Midas (1589), hence it could not have been written prior to 1589. (refernece here) Additionally, Stanley Wells argues that the scenes involving more than four characters, "betray an uncertainty of technique suggestive of inexperience." (reference here) As such, the play is considered to be one of the first Shakespeare composed upon arriving in London (Roger Warren suggests he may have written it prior to his arrival) and, as such, he lacked theatrical experience. The play was definitely written by 1593, by which time Shakespeare was a successful and recognised playwright. This places the date of composition as most likely somewhere between 1589 and 1593. Almost all modern editors tend to agree that the date is probably narrower, c1589-1591.(a very brief further reading section here; literally two or three books)

Possibly too much information, but what y'all think in theory; at a glance information on the three major dates (performance, publication, first record), and then some notes on why a particular date is selected. Bertaut (talk) 16:51, 15 April 2010 (UTC)