Talk:List of military occupations of Latvia

Recognition

"Latvia, its neighbours, most Western European countries as well as the USA never recognized the regime put in place after 1945" This is evidently not true. Major powers recognized existing USSR borders after WW2. The source is: Yalta Conference. Murmillo 23:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

De facto -- but not de jure. For more on the United States policy, see Stimson Doctrine. For more detail, see section VI in this article at Lituanus, for example.

(This entry continues below.)

Read this one attentively, please: [1]. Since i don't have internet access to all of documents of Yalta Conference, I can't provide you with the text. As for Council of Europe and Europarlament. Their resolutions do not matter as CE and Europarlament are international organizations (or their parts), but not governments. They were not given right to speak for any european government. I think at least Helsinki Final Act(signed by presidents, prime ministers or at least ministers of foreign affairs) expects modifying the statement in the article. Murmillo 00:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The fact is that not a few embassies continued to function, and relations were restored rather than established anew. The restoration of relations with European countries is explicit. Membership in bodies like the Olympics was renewed. Helsinki did not affect the actual legal status, and the sentence as it is written is true. If you want to try to modify it, go ahead -- but the fact is that most countries did not recognize the incorporation/annexation. I do not understand what Irpen is trying to say, and I won't bother with this. Occupation is a fact, any decent history will show that, other encyclopedias present it as such, and that is good enough for me. --Pēteris Cedriņš 11:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that the terms "occupation" and "annexation" are controversial regarding the status of Baltic States in the Soviet Union (independent of any viewpoints on the events of 1939-1940). The territories of modern Baltic States belonged to Russian Empire for hundreds of years (and the only Baltic country, which statehood has formed before 1917, was Lithuania that can be associated with Grand Duchy of Lithuania). The independence of Baltic States for a total of about 20 years (1920-1940) was related to the Brest Treaty and the so-called Peace Treaties with the so-called Baltic States (actually, former regions of Russian Empire). In fact, all these Treaties should be considered as Treaties between Soviet Government and German Empire (or Entente) on the other side, because Baltic regions were occupied by Germany (and Entente) during those events. According to the logic of modern nationalists those Treaties should be considered void ab initio, because 1) they were established during WW1 under military force of Germany and Entente intervention 2) they were concluded by the Soviet Government which was not the legal government of Russian Republic (according to results of the elections of the Constituent Assembly of Russian Republic Bolshevik Party took only about 22% of seats, at the same time Socialist-Revolutioners Party took about 40% of seats; also Bolshevik Soviets could not be considered as effective government during Civil War; also Bolsheviks were not formally recognized by the most of the states of the world until 1930s). As for diplomatic relations with Latvia you're not quite right just the same. USSR was not a unitary state, it was a federal state. According to the Constition of USSR its members could establish international relations and act as subjects of international law. We know, for instance, that Byelorussian SSR and Ukrainian SSR were United Nations members and concluded a lot of international treaties. Law has not restricted USSR Republics to establish diplomatic relations with other states. Evidently, every Republic could have its embassies. Latvia (later renamed to Latvian SSR) was not an exception to the rule. It is legally incorrect to oppose Soviet Republics to USSR as it is incorrect to oppose EU states to EU. The Helsinki Final Act was not the only legal document which recognized borders in Europe. Another example is the Treaty between USSR and the Federal Republic of Germany (Art. 3) signed on August 12, 1970 in Moscow (here you can see the text in Russian: http://www.portalus.ru/modules/history/rus_readme.php?subaction=showfull&id=1142027784&archive=&start_from=&ucat=2&category=2). Murmillo 23:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Murmillo wrote: "...the so-called Peace Treaties with the so-called Baltic States (actually, former regions of Russian Empire). In fact, all these Treaties should be considered as Treaties between Soviet Government and German Empire (or Entente) on the other side, because Baltic regions were occupied by Germany (and Entente) during those events..." No, that is factually incorrect; Latvia was no longer occupied by German troops when the Treaty of Riga was signed; Bermondt-Avalov (the German-Russian "West Russian Volunteer Army") was defeated in 1919, and Latvian and Polish troops, as well as those units of the Landeswehr loyal to the Republic of Latvia, had driven the Bolsheviks from Latgale. The Treaty was concluded after free elections to the Constituent Assembly had been held, when the Republic of Latvia was fully in control of its territory. From the text of the Treaty: "Russia recognizes without objection the independence and sovereignty of the Latvian State and forever renounces all sovereign rights held by Russia in relation to the Latvian nation and land [...] The Latvian nation and land shall have no obligations arising from their previous possession by Russia." The contention that the so-called "republics" of the Soviet Union could conduct their own foreign affairs is too ridiculous to comment upon -- the embassies and legations to which I refer represented the legal government of the Republic of Latvia, not the Latvian SSR (with regard to Belarus and Ukraine and their puppet UN seats -- Stalin is said to have suggested that Texas and California be given seats as well... note, too, that the Soviet seat passed to the Russian Federation). It is rather disingenuous to claim that the Soviet government was not the legal government of Russia, and then go on to claim that the forcible incorporation of Latvia was somehow legal; Latvia was a member of the League of Nations, and the Soviet government was recognized by nearly all countries prior to the occupation. The USSR reiterated its recognition of Latvian sovereignty repeatedly, even unto 1939/40. Today's Russian Federation is the legal successor to the USSR. --Pēteris Cedriņš 05:56, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting me about the Peace Treaties. I admit I could be wrong in some details. Anyway, the so-called independence of Latvia was _declared_ during German Occupation and was established during Civil War in Russia and foreign military intervention into Russia. The overall understanding of the situation in Russia and the other world during that period shows that those events happened by force rather by some legal procedure and good will. The text of the Treaty has only a small meaning because it was illegal and forced. The so-called secret ammendment to the Treaty of non-agression (also known as Pact of Molotov-Ribbentrop) between USSR and Germany only underlines the fact that occupied and annexed territories of Russian Bessarabia, Western Belorussia, Western Ukraine and Baltic territories are considered by Germany (due to the acts of which they were in fact occupied and annexed in 1914-1922) as territories of corresponding Soviet Republics (as the successors of former Russian Empire), nothing more. Regardless your understanding of the political processes in USSR, in terms of law regions of some federal states can establish international relations. For example, Art. 32 (3) of the Constitution of Federal Republic of Germany allows the regions (lands) to conclude international treaties (like Concordate between Bavaria and the Holy See of 1965), so to act as subjects of international law. A lot of other examples do exist. As for your claims that the embassies belonged to so-called Republic of Latvia, I must say that during 1940-1990 there existed no state with such name. Three essential attributes of state are territory, population and government. On the territory of Latvian SSR the only effective government was the government of Latvian SSR. The population voluntarily acquired soviet citizenship through getting soviet passports and participating in political life (I mean elections). You wrote:"It is rather disingenuous to claim that the Soviet government was not the legal government of Russia, and then go on to claim that the forcible incorporation of Latvia was somehow legal". It is quite unclear what you mean by "forcible incorporation" because Baltic territories never ceased to belong to Russia. The acts of the local authorities in 1939-1940 only brought local legislation in accordance with the legislation of USSR.

The statement:"Today's Russian Federation is the legal successor to the USSR" is a little bit confusing. Russian Federation is one of 12 legal successors (CIS Treaty members) of Soviet Union (Baltic republics terminated their membership a little before and are not recognized as USSR successors). RF has declared its sovereignity (from USSR) on June 12, 1990. Legal succession in international law is understood as transition of international rights and obligations from one subject of international law to another subject(s) (12 CIS members in our case). Only several things are related to what is called "RF continuity" (the only significant is UN Security Council membership). Apart from that modern RF should not be associated with USSR because it is highly incompatible with the political structure of USSR, its goals, etc. If someone is looking someone to accuse for local events of 1917-1990 then it is more correct to concentrate on Georgia (for Stalin), Israel (for 99% of Bolshevik Party leaders), Latvia (for more than 40000 of professional Latvian strikers that provided significant help to Bolsheviks during Civil War). Sorry for my broken English. 83.217.193.29 00:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of points in your assessment which, while appearing plausible, do not stand up to closer scrutiny.

I. Your postulation that Latvia's declaration of independence and subsequent peace treaty with the Soviet Union was "forced" upon the Soviet Union and therefore meaningless (in terms of recognition of a break by Latvia and the rest of the Baltics from Soviet Russian territory). This is, alas, the Greek chorus bemoaning the death knell of Russian empire and Russian greatness with the victory of Germany on the Eastern Front and what has widely been characterized by Russophiles as the "humiliation" of Russia in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. It's far too much for a discussion here, but, in truth, Brest-Litovsk preserved Bolshevism and allowed Lenin not only the latitude and time he needed to consolidate the Revolution against internal adversaries, but the opportunity to launch Communist agitation in Germany which hastened its downfall.

II. Your wishful postulation that the Latvian Soviet Republic as member of a federation could negotiate its own foreign policy is unrealistic at best. Article 18a (enacted February 1944) of the Soviet Constitution does state, "Each Union Republic has the right to enter into direct relations with foreign states and to conclude agreements and exchange diplomatic and consular representatives with them." This was the basis for the Ukraine and Byelorussia (Belarus) joining the United Nations. This had everything to do with central Soviet policy aims and very little to do with republic's rights. When the Latvian S.S.R. dared to begin to exercise its constitutional rights in the 50's the government was summarily purged.

III. Your declaration that the Latvian state did not exist from 1940-1990 is patently false. The Baltic Republics each took steps to insure their continuation in exile. Power of State was transferred by the Latvian government to Zarins, head of the Latvian Legation in England. The affairs of the sovereign state of Latvia continued to be conducted in exile until such time that continuity was restored with Power of State returned to a sovereign Latvian government on Latvian territory.

IV. Your characterization of "the only government in Latvia was the Soviet one" and that people voluntarily signed up for Soviet citizenship makes it sound like people queuing up for a happy day in Disneyland. Please! People also signed up to be party members in order to keep their jobs and not be shipped to the gulags to die there.

V. Your contention that by its very existence, the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact grants de jure continuity to Russian Soviet sovereignty over the Baltics is a leap of galactic proportions. Most notably, the "local authorities" you speak of were fraudulently installed and petitioned for membership to the Soviet Union in a manner illegal according to the Latvian Constitution. Only Soviet era encyclopedias speak of the "restoration" of Soviet power in the Baltics (ostensibly in continuity with the 1905 Revolution and its aftermath). Frankly, you also imply that Latvia's "membership" in the Russian empire was somehow a benign or natural state of affairs when, in fact, Peter the Great annihilated nearly every Latvian. Contemporary accounts indicate that one could travel mile upon mile without meeting a single person--there are estimates that as few as 17,000 Latvians were left alive after Peter the Great got through with joining Latvia to the glorious Russian empire.

VI. Your admonition that one should not associate the Russian Federation with the USSR because of fundamental incompatibilities is directed at whom, exactly? Perhaps the Russian Duma--which years after Latvia's (re-)independence saw fit to pass a resolution in November 1999 to "remind" Latvia it had been a voluntary and legal member of the Soviet State? The Russian Federation has gone out of its way to associate itself with the Soviet past and to rehabilitate and glorify that past. Even the bust of Felix Dzerzhinsky, head of the dreaded and murderous Cheka, now stands restored (in 2005) in Moscow's police headquarters. You are obviously confused about who is associating Russia with the Soviet Union.

VII. Last but not least, heap the blame on the Georgians (Stalin), the Israelis (Jews in the Bolshevik leadership), and the Latvians (who guarded the Kremlin and saved Lenin, a bit of an overstatement but there is basis in fact--they were promised Latvian sovereignty, actually, and for their troubles Stalin later ordered all Latvians in the Soviet Union to be shot). Excuse me, but has anyone here said anything bad about the Russian people? Pride in Russian heritage is possible without parroting Soviet and now Russian Federation propaganda. What's the real problem here? That Russians feel worthless without Soviet glory to bask in? "Ahhh... we were once an EMPIRE!" Lithuania once stretched from the Baltic to the Black Sea. I don't see any Lithuanian angst over loss of empire. Get a grip! Have some pride! Stop regurgitating Soviet pablum! Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

With regard to Europe, see Renaud Dehousse, Department of Law, European University Institute, Florence, "The International Practice of the European Communities: Current Survey": "Although the Member States of the Community, along with the majority of Western states, have always refused to recognize the annexation of the Baltic states..."

From the Resolution regarding the Baltic States adopted by the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe, September 29, 1960: "The Assembly, On the twentieth anniversary of the military occupation of the three European states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, and their forcible incorporation into the Soviet Union, Recognises that this illegal annexation was accomplished without the free voluntary expression of the Baltic peoples, [...] Acknowledges that the great majority of governments of nations of the world still recognises the de jure independent existence of the Baltic states..."

From the press release of the EC, 27 August 1991: "The Community and its Member States warmly welcome the restoration of the sovereignty and independence of the Baltic States which they lost in 1940. They have consistently regarded the democratically elected parliaments and governments of these states as the legitimate representatives of the Baltic peoples."

Many other relevant documents may be found here. --Pēteris Cedriņš 00:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Best yet, would be to produce a cold war time document, with the official statement of the western government claiming that it does consider Latvia as being part of the USSR. Or, if such documents were never issued, say that the non-recognition fact, is an opinion of certain historians.

I read the article in Lituanus with interest. It does say that the US refused to recognize the act of incorporation. There is no doubt that annexation was illegal from the POV of the international law. However, not considering Latvia as part of USSR in 60s-70s is not the same as to acknowledge the illegality of annexation in 1940.

Actions of US courts is interesting but marginally relevant. The gov in US does not order the courts what to do. The annexation itself was clearly illegal and courts recognized it as such, no wonder. We should make it clear when speaking of "non-recognition" that it was an illegal annexation that was non-recognized and not the Soviet border. --Irpen 06:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

5 Occupation Years?

It strikes me as curious that the first five years of the Occupation of Latvia are segregated from the next 45. While I will not attempt to expand the article to include the post-1945 occupation, the reader should certainly be given a clear indication this article only covers a small, if important and unique, part of the occupation years.

This article is bluntly POV. Worst of all is the "recent misrepresentations" section, which I'm tempted to delete outright. Everyking 04:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I did a rewrite to make it less POV, though it probably still is very POV - problem is, the POV which I tried to remove mostly corresponds with my POV, someone with less of an oppinion on what happened in Latvia in the early days of the second world war would probably do a better job. I do think that the existance of this article in principle is very important though, though it should at the moment either be expanded or renamed. Expanded in the sense that having an article called occupation of Latvia not mentioning the German occupation (and the eventual reannexiation of Latvia in 1944 which happened after the withdrawal of Nazi troops and after the reestablishment of an independent Latvian government) just isn't right. I'd either have someone add a paragraph on the German occupation at least or move it to "Soviet Annexation of Latvia". I do think the words annexation and occupation can be used though, being neutral shouldn't stop us from calling things by their name. Especially since even the Russian wikipedia does this. ChiLlBeserker 09:34, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

This article must be renamed. There is no single mention of the word "occupation" in the description of historical events within the article. There is no universal agreement on the term. My believe is that "annexation" is the proper term for this, at least, this view has equal right to exist. Such opinionated article doesn't belong here. Iļja 217.198.238.155 02:48, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

"Occupation" and "annexation" are very different; the Baltic States were occupied prior to their annexation (Latvia was occupied on 17 June, but was not annexed until 5 August). I agree that the article needs substantial expansion and revision, but I strongly disagree with the proposal to rename it. If I steal your car and six weeks later I forge the title to your car, an article on the theft of your car should probably be called "the theft of X's car," not "the change of title to X's car" (whether you tried to hit me when I pointed the gun at you is of course immaterial) unless confined to the forgery of the title. I agree with much of what ChiLlBeserker writes above, but his comment conveniently illustrates a serious difficulty with the term "annexation" as a replacement for "occupation": Latvia was not re-annexed in 1944 -- according to the Soviets, Latvia was occupied Soviet territory during the German occupation (this had bearing on how the population was to be treated [though this was often not the case in practice and the population was treated as under occupation], on how the Latvians who had served in the Legion were viewed, etc.). The government of the Latvian SSR continued to function, formally, in Russia. Most of the world had never recognized the original annexation, and this is quite different from not recognizing the occupation; the profound difference between de jure and de facto is central to the subject of the article. For example, in the period between the invasion and the annexation in 1940, many persons (including the presidents of Estonia and Latvia) were subject to repression by the Soviets and deported or shot (a violation of international law because the Baltics were still technically independent). There is another article entitled Occupation of Baltic Republics. In my opinion, both articles should be expanded to cover the German occupation 1941-1944 and the re-occupation by the Soviets. --Pēteris Cedriņš 09:29, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Occupation is defined in 1907 IV Hague Convention, Article 42. There was no Soviet military administration (and no war between Latvia and USSR) in Latvia in 1940, so we can't speak about occupation. 217.198.224.13 23:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

If you read the articles under what an occupying power's army is prohibited from doing according to the afore-mentioned articles, the Soviet army violated all the terms. Both the Soviets and Nazis conscripted Latvians into their armies. The Soviets deported Latvians off Latvian territory while Latvia was sovreign, an act of war. By any legal definition, the Soviet presence in Latvia during their first (one year) and second (~fifty year) was an occupation. The Hague Convention is also not the only definer of "occupation." From the www.unhcr.org site (begin quote) "Occupation is defined by an even clearer humanitarian law standard. The earliest definition of occupation is found in Article 42 of the Annex to the 1899 Hague Convention No. IV Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land. It states that “a territory is occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.”98 A second definition is found in Paragraph 2 of Article 2 of the Geneva Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War: “The Convention […] shall apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.” Of these two definitions, the Hague definition is possessed of much stricter requirements and would be more relevant to conditions of formal war. The Geneva Convention definition is more germane to refugee problems in Africa because it focuses on de facto control of territory, whether occupation is “partial or total occupation”, and “even if a state of war is not recognized.” (end quote)

What makes an occupation an occupation, according to international courts, (Human Rights Watch site) includes: "the occupying power must be in a position to substitute its own authority for that of the occupied authorities, which must have been rendered incapable of functioning publicly". Whether it's administered by the army or by another authority of the occupying power does not matter. It's still an occupation. Pēters 07:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I request the recognition of the alternative point of view in the article, at least in the terminology. The article is not neutral without it. 217.198.224.13 22:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC) Iļja

Iļja, I fail to see how the article lacks neutrality because it refers to the Soviet presence throughout its term in Latvia as an occupation. For an article about the Earth's moon to be neutral, would it need to hold equally valid the views that the the moon is made of cheese and that astronauts never landed there? Quoting from the REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COMMUNIST AGGRESSION AND THE FORCED INCORPORATION OF THE BALTIC STATES INTO THE U. S. S. R., THIRD INTERIM REPORT, 1954 (U. S. Congress): "CONCLUSIONS - (I) The evidence is overwhelming and conclusive that Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were forcibly occupied and illegally annexed by the U. S. S. R. Any claims by the U. S. S. R. that the elections conducted by them in July 1940 were free and voluntary or that the resolutions adopted by the resulting parliaments petitioning for recognition as a Soviet Republic were legal are false and without foundation in fact. (II) That the continued military and political occupation of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia by the U. S. S. R. is a major cause of the dangerous world tensions which now beset mankind and therefore constitutes a serious threat to the peace." Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Iļja, a question for you... is it about whether or not the Soviet Union was an occupying power or is it about whether or not you as a Russian Latvian (I'm admittedly taking a leap here) are to be considered an "occupier?" What makes "good" and "bad" Latvians these days (as in residents/citizens of the state of Latvia) has little, if anything, to do with one's ethnicity. Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It is about Soviet Union, and, therefore, about my status. If an illicit occupation took place, then I, as a part of it, should be "undone" somehow, to restore justice and pre-occupation status quo. If you say that occupation is one thing, but because of impracticality of deporting hundreds of thousands of people you agree that their status is legal now, you are showing inconsequence, and someone will necessarily point it out sooner or later, and will be right. You quote a document by U.S. Congress, why should I give it more weight than any other. Most of the countries didn't have problems with post-war division of Europe, the U.S. was one (if not the only one) of very few. I deny that the United States Congress has more authority in this subject than any other body. 80.81.38.158 08:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC) Iļja

No - international justice, if there is such a thing at all, certainly isn't about pursuing hundreds of thousands of little personal vendettas - such as "undoing" the presence of former Soviet citizens who resettled to Latvia during occupation and their descendants. Restitution can take various forms and obviously is subject to law and common sense. Where nothing else is practicable, a simple acknowledgement that injustice took place as well as promise of non-repetition by the legal successor of Soviet state - Russian federation - should be the only remedy and just satisfaction Baltic states can hope for. Doc15071969 14:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, the term "occupation" is by now widely accepted and used when referring to the events in question (see for example Britannica http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=occupation+baltic+states+britannica). Nevertheless, the accusations of lack of NPOV keep resurfacing from time to time. Perhaps we should take this throug some kind of formal NPOV dispute resulution process, that later can be used for reference? What forms is the basis of your claim of lack of NPOV - the view of what I would call" minority" certainly IS represented in the article by stating that: "The Russian Federation has repeatedly and vocally denied the occupation of Latvia, maintaining instead that Latvia joined the Soviet Union voluntarily and legally (statement by the Russian Duma, to "remind deputies of the Latvian Saeima that Latvia's being a part of the Soviet Union was grounded by fact and by law," November 19, 1999.)" Doc15071969 15:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Basis for occupation

My response to Iļja— I will be removing your "POV title" flag. "Occupation" is not about your status. For example, I was able to reclaim family propery (land) from before the war, but the dwellings and surrounding area which were at that time "legally" acquired within the context of the Soviet Union were claimed by the inhabitants--with no recourse on my part to change it.
    Polemics aside, the government of Latvia obviously realizes that the influx of Russians as the result of the Soviet occupation is not going disappear--let's be realistic. And a majority of ethnic Russians are now citizens. Perhaps you have an ultra-nationalist Latvian neighbor who despises Russians, if so, for that I am truly sorry. As I have said before, there are Latvians and Russians who make wonderful Latvians, and Latvians and Russians who care nothing about the betterment of Latvia and only care to line their own pockets. And there are those Russians who still believe and live in the propagandist glories of the Soviet past--a situation far from unique to Latvia.
    "Neutral" does not mean because Russia maintains the Soviet Union did not occupy Latvia that the title changes. Since the term "occupation" appears to be an issue again I will be adding a "Basis for Occupation" section. The only thing that is "POV" here is that you are interpreting "occupation" as a personal attack on you.
    Finally, if you are truly concerned about the Soviet occupation, the way to "undo" the occupation is (for Russia) to admit it happened and to move on. Every time Russia denies the Soviet Union occupied Latvia, it revives and perpetuates that occupation. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Potential expansion

(detached from the section above) It would be a lot of work, but I propose expanding the article to encompass the entire occupation period, from 1940 to 1991. Otherwise, subsequent mass deportations, the attempted liberalization of the Latvian S.S.R. (and subsequent purge of its leadership), etc. is not captured. People who managed to survive the first deportations of 1940 did not get to see home for 15 to 20 years. To artificially cut off at the end of World War II doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of historical events. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 23:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The article on Baigais gads substantially duplicates this article, and it bears a title that is (1) almost unknown in English and (2) extremely objectionable to many, the term having been popularized by a work of Nazi propaganda with that title. The Occupation of Latvia article already duplicates much of the material in Occupation of Baltic Republics -- I think there is a definite need for this separate article, but it should focus especially on what was specific to Latvia, and incorporating some of the material from the Baigais gads article here would be appropriate. The other major change that needs to be made is the inclusion of material on the Nazi occupation in this article, as ChiLlBeserker pointed out above, and on the Soviet re-occupation in 1944-45. The difficulty, then, is where to end the article; there could be some overlap between this and Latvian SSR, though, with the last section of this article devoted to issues of international (non-) recognition, etc. At this point, both of the articles I propose merging require considerable work, and neither is at all "encyclopedic." --Pēteris Cedriņš 01:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Baigais Gads is a definition of POV. Also, consider remaning to include "1940" or "First Soviet" in the title. Or expand to include Nazi occupation and Soviet re-occupation. Renata 02:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

"Baigais Gads" can certainly re-appear here, covering the first Soviet occupation. That would need to be followed by another section covering the Nazi occupation, then finally, the Soviet re-occupation, probably with some mention of Baltic partisans (haven't checked to see if there's an article on that). Perhaps retitling as "Occupation of Latvia in World War II" or "Occupation of Latvia in the Second World War" would be a proper title and scope. It's in large part because of the experience of the first Soviet occupation that as many Latvians fled as did with the retreating Nazi army, winding up in DP camps all over Germany after the war (or, alternately, fleeing across the Baltic to Sweden)—so it's important with respect to Latvian history and diaspora to connect the two Soviet occupations book-ending the Nazi. The occupations also need to be discussed together in how they worked together to destroy centuries-old positive Latvian-Jewish relations. (Really a pan-Eastern-European phenomenon, but Latvia has always been the lightning rod going back to my personally hearing then Congresswoman Liz Holtzman declare "all Latvians are Nazis.") In writing "Baigais Gads" originally, I also sought to lay to rest what was and wasn't legal, to document Soviet intent through mention of specific artifacts (Latvian and Lithuanian SSR maps) and incidents (Stalin telling Munters he could occupy Latvia "now"), and to provide a more detailed chronology. I would like to see that preserved or expanded, as I found the current "Occupation of Latvia" article lacking in that regard. I should mention that from my perspective, at least, "Baigais Gads" is how the first Soviet occupation has always and only been referred to by every Latvian I've known (in exile, that lived through it)—that Nazi propaganda goes by the same title or that "year of terror" may now seem somehow a subjective judgement is unfortunate but not a reason to label the term POV. —Pēters 06:21, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Good idea, but I would suggest "Occupation of Latvia 1940-1945" rather than "World War II" because the war did not begin here until the German invasion, and it is important to make that clear even in the title -- it is very common disinformation to try to suggest that the USSR needed to occupy the Baltics for its security, that Latvia was pro-German, etc. The process began before 1940, as already noted, and that can be included -- just as ending the article with the reoccupation and dating it will not imply that the occupation ended with the "integration" of Latvia into the USSR, which should be made clear.

Regarding the term "Baigais gads" -- it was referred to that way by many Latvians here and in exile primarily because of the Nazi propaganda that popularized the term, even if we take Virza's 1939 poem "Baigā vasara" as one of its roots. I am not trying to suggest that Nazi ideology was popularized together with the term -- it wasn't -- but the term is intimately and irrevocably connected to that text (if you Google it, the first hits are for the anti-Semitic propaganda, for example). Dribins notes that the Central Council of Latvia referred to the Nazi occupation by that term, by the way, and suggests that it could better be used in the plural ("Years of Horror") -- "Antisemītiskās ideoloģijas histērija vācu nacistu okupētajā Latvijā 1941.–1942. gadā.". The Latvian term is in any case rare in English -- and when it is used at English language links, it is often by the extreme right in defense of the Nazi work and its point of view.

"Merge" at Wiki means making one article of two, with one title -- I am proposing the incorporation of material from the "Baigais gads" article here and eliminating that article, not merely suggesting that the material re-appear here. Pēteris Cedriņš 16:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree on 1940-1945 for the title—Latvia did try and maintain neutrality when the war started and was not immediately affected. I do think "Baigais Gads" should be still mentioned as a term by which the first Soviet occupation is often referred to, with the note that propagandists have used the term for their own purposes. I do apologize for one lack of clarity on my part, which is, by "re-appear" I meant the Baigais Gads article contents being carried over to here and that article becoming a redirect.

I believe it is important to identify which Soviet actions were legal under international and Latvian constitutional law and which, whether by the Soviet Union and/or the Soviet installed Saeima, were not. The "Soviet presence was legal" and "annexation was legal and voluntary" and "occupation" is a POV term discussion needs to be laid to rest, or at least all the facts laid out: the deportation of Latvian citizens including government officials to the Soviet Union while Latvia was independent was an unprovoked act of aggression, the petition to join the Soviet Union was unequivocally illegal under the Latvian constitution which was still in effect at the time (aside from being requested by officials installed through an election which was both rigged and then completely falsified), etc.

My knowledge of the Nazi occupation is more familial than academic. Nevertheless, there are some topics there which I would like to see explored. There is the reality of the Nazis being lesser of two evils for most Latvians—obviously not for my father-in-law's family's Jewish best friend who was decapitated. More importantly, there is Stalin's widespread exploitation of Jews, using them to replace Latvians who were shot or deported—as at my mother's post/phone office in Talsi. It is because of Stalin that Jews became synonymous as Stalin's "collaborators." When the Nazis and their atrocities came, Latvians who participated did not do so out of alleged widespread Latvian sympathy to German anti-Semitism, they did it out of pure revenge. (Lunch time conversation my mother overheard in Talsi: "After what they [the Jews] did to my sister, I could kill them all.") My parents were saved by one such Jew, someone who was working for my mother at the post office who told her "don't go home" when the mass deportations came—the real point is that both Latvians and Jews were Stalin's victims. I find the notion that Latvians greeted the Nazis with enthusiasm and gleefully joined in their atrocities as an expression of centuries-old anti-Semitism (I have seen it described as such more than once) utterly repugnant. There are other issues to deal with as well, such as the Waffen SS—largely illegally conscripted but nevertheless eager for the opportunity to bear arms against the Red Army, knowing it for what it was because of the first Soviet occupation.

Not a simple topic to deal with, but an important one. —Pēters 17:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The topic is indeed an exceedingly complex one; I can't, however, agree that there is a "reality of the Nazis being lesser of two evils for most Latvians"; you mean ethnic Latvians, of course, not Latvian citizens -- but even so, as many as 30 000 ethnic Latvian civilians were killed during the Nazi occupation. The contention about Stalin's "using [Jews] to replace Latvians who were shot or deported" is also questionable; one should note that more Jews as a percentage of their share of the population were deported in 1941 than persons of any other ethnic group, ethnic Latvians included. As to a possible motivation of revenge -- to quote Rudīte Vīksne, from the 2001 Progress Report of Latvia's History Commission: "The first findings indicate that there is no connection whatsoever between the events of the first Soviet occupation of 1940-41 and the participation of Latvian groups in the murder of the Jews. The motives for their participation are to be sought elsewhere." Three of the four main people ordering deportations in the security apparatus in 1941 were indeed Jews: Semyon Shustin, who ordered the deportation of 6636 persons and the shooting of at least a few dozen; Zyama Krivitsky, who ordered the deportation of 1915 persons; and Aleksandr Brezgin, 1138 (an ethnic Latvian, Jānis Cinis, deported 2479 persons), and this certainly helped establish the myth that "the Chekists were Jews" (Sources: Zālīte, Dimanta; Stranga). At the same time, there was almost no Jewish presence in the régime itself -- Dribins notes that in the "People's Saeima" of 1940, only 2 of 100 members were Jews; in the Central Committee of the Communist Party, 1 of 35 members was a Jew; in the Soviet of People's Commissars, there were no Jews at all. The Nazis used propaganda like Baigais gads to exploit anti-Semitism, but they definitely didn't invent it -- whilst Latvia had an excellent record for the treatment of minorities, including the Jews, by comparison to most of Eastern Europe prior to the war, a perusal of the regional press in the early 1930s would disabuse anybody of the notion that anti-Semitism was absent in Latvia; it was quite prevalent and often quite virulent. Among the things I think need to be stressed in any appraisal of the period is (1) that one must avoid the generalization that "Latvians [...] gleefully joined in [the Nazis'] atrocities," as you say -- because we are talking about actual criminals, not "the Latvians," and the criminals were actually not so very numerous; to quote Andrew Ezergailis: "The criminally guilty, using the criteria of the war crimes trials in the West, would involve about 500 to 600 men, 1,000 at the most. That would include four dozen journalists who wrote, edited, and published Nazi propaganda about the Jews." [2] (2) The level of "collaboration" should be kept clear -- Latvia as a state had been destroyed by the Soviets prior to the Nazi invasion, and Latvia was never in any position to collaborate with the Nazis; as Ezergailis has pointed out, Denmark did collaborate, and was thus able to save its Jews. Latvian nationalism, and that includes the ultra-nationalism of the extremely anti-Semitic Pērkonkrusts, was fundamentally incompatible with Nazism; the pērkonkrustietis Gustavs Celmiņš ended up in the Resistance, was captured by the Gestapo, and was sent to Flossenbürg, a concentration camp that held many prominent figures from the Eastern European far right. --Pēteris Cedriņš 18:41, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Regarding... Rudīte Vīksne, from the 2001 Progress Report of Latvia's History Commission: "The first findings indicate that there is no connection whatsoever between the events of the first Soviet occupation of 1940-41 and the participation of Latvian groups in the murder of the Jews. The motives for their participation are to be sought elsewhere." I can only speak to my mother's personal experiences in a government office, where the exploitation of Jews replacing Latvians was complete—as assistant postmaster, she was the only Latvian left, working with Red Army soldiers with machine guns at her back while replacement workers eavesdropped and informed on every conversation. She lived simply because the Soviets needed her, as they had installed a grossly incompetent apparatchik as postmaster to replace the one who "disappeared." Frankly, for Latvia to legitimately and necessarily attone for its participation in the Holocaust, the findings of the history commission could not be otherwise and still be politically acceptable--any other response would indicate there was some "excuse" for the Holocaust in Latvia, and the Holocaust is morally inexcusable regardless of the circumstances. (One American Jewish leader withdrew in protest from that very commission, I believe, as soon as there was a sniff of linkage. I'll try and track down that bit of information again. And I'll be reading the report, obviously.) The Latvians who disappeared in Talsi to be replaced by Jews in those government jobs—which could not have been a unique situation, that is not how the Soviets operated—testify that Viksne's statement is as much a choice as it is a conclusion.

In the meantime, if we are agreed, I would suggest we go ahead and move this article to "Occupation of Latvia, 1940-1945" or is it more "Wiki" to say "Occupation of Latvia (1940-1945)", and insert stubs for the sections needing to be added. I would be glad to take the extra detail in "Baigais Gads" and incorporate it in a merged section dealing with the first Soviet occupation (and then eliminate that article and redirect here). And we'll see how it develops from there. —Pēters 00:20, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed re the merger, and there doesn't seem to be any opposition. Regarding the History Commission -- those sentences by Vīksne are very specific and refer only to the motivation of those who participated in the murder of the Jews. I have not known the History Commission to be politically correct or to change its findings because of outside pressure -- a summary of its activities related to the Holocaust can be found here. The context of a Jewish presence in the middle and lower occupation administration is also important; as Aivars Stranga describes it in Ebreji un diktatūras Baltijā 1920-1940 (Rīga: Latvijas Universitātes Jūdaikas Studiju Centrs, 2002 [second, expanded edition], p. 245) (my crude translation), "a national consensus among ethnic Latvians had been reached in one question, and possibly in one question only: that the rôle of the minorities in the economy and especially in the administration needed to be reduced as much as possible -- in the civil service this had already been accomplished completely; in the economy, it would be done; and the behavior of minorities was to be inconspicuous." After the Soviet invasion, "there was a conspicuous 'reaction' -- the Jews 'returned,' and dislike for this is to be found in any and all Latvian memoirs, including those of [Fricis] Menders and [Voldemārs] Bastjānis, who were on the whole friendly to the Jews." There were, for instance, week-long riots in Liepāja after 17 June 1940, and though they were facilitated by the Red Army and Jews were not a majority of the rioters, Jewish participation was emphasized; the visibility of Jews by comparison to the Ulmanis dictatorship led to a distortion of their rôle (similarly, the one Jew in the Cheka basement in "the House on the Corner" became a prominent figure because many had contact with him). The Jewish minority was far from monolithic -- it was actually very divided, and it is worth bearing in mind that the structure of the community was completely destroyed by the Soviets; 12,4% of the 14 June 1941 deportees were Jewish, and the deportees included the community's (communities') leaders. It is quite common for the far right to point to Shustin, for example -- but he was utterly déraciné and a Russian not a Latvian Jew; to link the slaughter of one's neighbors in a Latgalian village to the presence of some Jews in the security apparatus and civil service is more than dubious, and rabid anti-Semitism among thugs (including not a few students, especially in the fraternities) was not at all rare prior to the occupation. --Pēteris Cedriņš 10:55, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll take a hand at the merger—my time's a bit limited the next few days, but I'm well motivated. I agree totally on Shustin et al.—far too much propaganda about Jews running the Cheka (a more atheistic group, frankly, could not be found!). I still have to make the observation. My mother, who speaks of her relationships with Jews with only fondness (and carried forward, all my best friends growing up were Jewish), was genuinely puzzled by the later Soviet oppression of Jews... "I don't understand why they would oppress their collaborators." Much has been written—and well—on the role played by propaganda on all sides. Still, my mother puts professional skeptics to shame, accepting nothing at face value. For her to be geniunely puzzled, still, 65 years later, speaks to a dynamic of personal experience influencing the beliefs of the "average person" at a grass roots level outside the propaganda machines which I am completely convinced has not been captured in current scholarship: a successful anti-Semitic propaganda campaign is not the source of my mother's puzzlement. BTW, I've written the Latvian Historical Institute and hope to correspond with Ms. Vīksne about seeking a scholarly context for my mother's experiences. I understand that her personal research has been focused on the Holocaust in more rural areas (which I'm hoping would include Talsi). —Pēters 19:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Merge completed

I took a first cut at merging in the Baigais Gads article, I'll be going back and redirecting that article here. The Nazi and second Soviet occupation (for the period through to the end of the war) need to be done. Rather than merciless editing, perhaps we can discuss here first for some consensus. --Pēters 07:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the old "Western Views" and "Claims and Historical Reassessment" sections. Non-recognition of annexation will be dealt with at end of second Soviet occupation and, in any event, is also well known. The "Claims and Historical Reassessment" was a rehash of various POV claims and counter-claims. Where appropriate, details of events in these two sections have been already incorporated in the rewrite done so far. --Pēters 05:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

That grey box does not belong to the article. It belongs to wikisource at best. There is a policy that says you should not include original texts in the articles. Renata 05:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I do not have the complete article and it is only partially quoted from and not reproduced in full, which presents a problem insofar as making a copy available on Wikisource. I can of course paraphrase the whole thing but I don't see that adding value. If there's consensus on "Wikisourcing" it nevertheless, I'll do it. Pēters 03:50, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

At least you could do this: select the most important parts of that order and rephrase them. Or you could leave some reaaaaly significant section (like 2-4 sentences). Renata 04:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The occupation of Latvia ended in 1991. Or at the very earliest, when stable, non-Soviet bloc governments first recognized the Latvian SSR. I don't think that happened until at least a few years after 1945. Some would say the occupation ended in 1994 when the last Russian troops left. heqs 13:06, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

As I just mentioned above, occupation involves the invading power substituting itself for the indigenous and previously sovreign authority. Under those terms, and the fact that the Baltic legations continued to function in exile, I believe it's fair and objective to say that the Baltics were occupied for the full term of the Soviet presence. Pēters 07:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Earlier on this page you mentioned that there might be an article on the Baltic partisans. I began expanding the Forest Brothers article a few weeks ago, but it still has a long way to go... (I know the 'see also' is kind of bloated right now, am actually planning on incorporating almost all of those into the text at some point). heqs 09:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way, do you have a link or source for that NKVD order? It should go in the article and it would be very useful to me. heqs 13:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I've been away from Wiki for a bit... in the article you can click on the Order 001223 reference in "Serov's deportation Order № 001223 applied to all the Baltics." which takes you to the Wiki article, where there is a link to the full text in the commons. Pēters J. Vecrumba 05:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Legal definition

There has not been war between the USSR and Latvia, therefore, according to international law, the Soviet presence could not be called "occupation". I propose that the article's title be changed as "Soviet domination of Latvia". 212.116.151.110 13:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The premise that "there was no war" and therefore, according international law, Latvia could not have been "occupied" is completely false. As noted earlier, the earliest definition of occupation is found in Article 42 of the Annex to the 1899 Hague Convention No. IV: Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land. It states that “a territory is occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army." A formally declared state of war is not required. If the hostile army controls the territory—meaning, the sovereign institutions of the occupied territory are no longer in control, then this criterion for "occupation" has been met.

Furthermore, as the Soviet, then Russian, military did not depart Latvia until well after continuity of Latvian sovereignty was re-established within the territory of Latvia, that qualifies the entire period of Soviet presence in Latvia as an occupation.

Finally, with regard to "war," the Soviet Union deported Latvian citizens to Soviet territory while Latvia was still a sovereign country even by the account of the Soviet Union, constituting a blatant act of war. Both deportation from occupied territory of its civilian population and the transfer of the occupying power's civilian population into occupied territory have been specifically clarified as grave breeches of the Geneva Convention.

Whatever your reasons for wishing to believe that the Soviet Union only "dominated" Latvia, they are not supported by the objective and incontrovertible facts. Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for citing the Hague Convention. As it strictly states out: placed under the authority of the hostile army. Latvia was under the authority of a pro-Soviet, pro-Communist, but officialy Latvian government. There was not an occupation commission, made up of Red Army officers.

Subsequent to the invasion (as opposed to the initial stationing of Soviet troops on Latvian territory in accordance with the terms of the mutual assistance pact), the government was NOT an officially Latvian government, as it was (a) "elected" before the ballots were even counted (corroborated by Soviet documents), and (b) the fraudulently installed government petitioned to join, then joined, the Soviet Union under terms which were completely illegal under the terms of the Latvian constitution which was allegedly still in effect in an allegedly sovereign Latvia. There does not need to be an official military occupation commission, though it could be said that was essentially the role of the NKVD. (Just as there does not need to be a formal declaration of war.) Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

If a deportation is to be considered an act of war, then the deportation of Jews in Tsarist Russia is by no doubt a Russo-Jewish war! DamianOFF 08:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately not quite, though I would completely agree on a moral basis. The "act of war" part is the deportation of the citizen of one sovereign state from the territory of that state and into the territory of the other (aggresor) state. That is legally different from the deportation of a citizen of a sovereign state to another territory still within that same state. Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

There was no state of war between Germany and Denmark, but there is an article on the occupation of Denmark. There was no state of war between Czechoslovakia and Germany, yet there is an article on the occupation of Czechoslovakia. Maybe the persons trying to argue against historical fact, but lacking a factual leg to stand on, could hop on over and try to change the titles of those and other articles, instead of wasting our time with these sinister and senseless polemics? I mean, informed argument is a lovely thing -- but perhaps one could read at the very least a wikipage or two of what has been written anent these issues, before wading in? See other encyclopedias (the sort with serious editors). See the works cited. See, heh, the Pravda of the day, re Czechoslovakia! --Pēteris Cedriņš 22:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I answered this one on the Lithuania talk. DamianOFF 08:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Boris Meissner, Die russische Politik gegenüber der baltischen Region als Prüfstein für das Verhältnis Russlands zu Europa -- in Die Aussenpolitik der baltischen Staaten und die internationalen Beziehungen im Ostseeraum, Hamburg:Bibliotheka Baltica, 1994, S.466-504 clearly defines the SU as aggressor and its seizure of the Baltic States as 'occupation'. Even Russian historians nowadays admit that “Soviet leadership, having thus broken all its treaties with Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, entered its troops and began systematic Sovietization of the region.”[3]. Constanz - Talk 17:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this was the de facto situation, not denied by anyone. But the de jure situation was one of allied troops entering in accordance with an alliance treaty. DamianOFF 08:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it will become clearer with some coffee in the morning, but what de facto and de jure situation are you talking about? How is this discussion related to the Allied forces and their post-war occupation of Germany? Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:47, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I can repost here if need be, but because the issue had been raised in "Village Pump" relative to Lithuania I have dealt with the occupation Yes/No debate on the Talk:Lithuania page, section entitled "Whether or not the Baltics were 'occupied' is not a popularity contest.'" --Pēters J. Vecrumba 13:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Soviet "pretenses" re: Poland

Please do not change pretense to protection. Stalin's "method" was to pursue geopolitical aim "X" while claiming "Y." I agree that Stalin invaded Poland, in part, to protect the U.S.S.R., however, unless you can cite a source which says purely protect, I will revert. My source specifically uses the word "pretense." I'll be glad to go back and annotate when I have some time; everything stated is directly from sources, I have not added my own POV (as in "pretense" versus "protect"). I'll be back to visit in a few days. Pēters J. Vecrumba 13:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)