Talk:Pamirid race

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Math920 (talk | contribs) at 03:42, 11 April 2010 (→‎This article needs improving). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article needs improving

While this article could potentially be of interest, I think it has a lot of problems. First, there are zero sources and I added a slew of fact tags only to have the creator of the article, Math920, revert all of them. This is unfortunate since that user actually names the authors of the sources, but does not name the sources, which should be easy enough to include. Second, while I'm familiar with the Pamirs, Fergana and Central Asia in general, I've never heard of a "Pamir-Fergana race" and I think this page would be better named "Pamir-Fergana racial theory." A simple google search of "Pamir-Fergana race" does turn up 5,000 hits from sources based on Russian, but this is not a widely recognized group and it's in reality a theoretical construct, and not a scientific fact. Thirdly, Math920 is lacking in some basic knowledge of proper wikipedia editing protocol, such as not creating a link for every instance of a term. For example, "Tajiks", "Uzbeks", and "Central Asia" each appear a number of times in the article and Math920 linked every instance of them. This is causing a major editing headache for the rest of us. Finally, I don't think including a list of "notable" members of Pamir-Fergana race has any use other than expressing fantastic nationalist claims. A list of such people that was composed of mostly figures that the government in Tajikistan and Tajik nationalist historians claim as "Tajik." I deleted that list.

I've tried cleaning up the article and even left a message at Math920's talk page, but that user promptly reverted all of fixes I made. David Straub (talk) 21:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response

1)I will add all the sources. This article is a translation from Russian into English of materials from highly reliable sources. 2)In Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, even children at schools know about Pamir-Fergana race, they get information about it, when they study history of formation of their peoples on the history lessons. In the West, Carlton Coon can class Tajiks as Alpines (you can search on google: "Turkestan and the Tajiks" or "Asiatic Alpines")in Soviet Union Tajiks and Uzbeks were classed in Pamir-Fergana race.The term "Pamir-Fergana race"(памиро-ферганская раса) or "Race of Central Asian interfluvial"(раса среднеазиатского междуречья) is used in all Soviet and Russian books on physical anthropology,history etc., beginning from 1930s and up until today. This race was and is a scientific fact in the post USSR the same way as races with names: "Nordic" or "Borreby" are a reality in the West. References to Oshanin, Yarkho and Ginzburg as well as use of Russian term "Pamir-Fergana race" can be found in many western and eastern written books on anthropology( For example in the book by Ilse Schwidetzky Grundlagen der Rassensystematik (Fundamentals of racial classification)-the book which was written in 1974). And if someone from the West don't know about term "Pamir-Fergana race" and can't find information about it on English internet, it doesn't mean that scientists of the West, who read international scientific literature, are not aware about the research of their Russian colleagues. It is very informative to inform English speaking peoples about research made by the Soviet/Russian scientists. And of course there is no "Pamir-Fergana racial theory", there were debates and several theories about its origin, the same way as there were debates about origin of Nordics or Mediterraneans in the West. What is important to know is that methods and terminology used in the Russian anthropology school is very different from terminology used by the Western anthropologists. Analog of Soviet "Pamir-Fergana race" in the West is von Eikshdet's "Turanid/Pamirid". 3) In case of editing wikipedia- Yes, this is my first article and I will be happy if someone helps me to improve this article, making it more accessible and informative,BUT NOT DELETING RELIABLE INFORMATION.4)In case of "list of notable members which express fantastic nationalist claims"...Tajik government or historians never claimed that Ulugbeg or Shah Rukh were Tajiks. People can belong to different races but be part of one nation (for example north French are Nordics, central-Alpines,southern-Mediterraneans) or they can be of one race but belong to different nations (Nordics can be found in Germany,France,Norway, Russia etc.)That list didn't contain even a single "fantastic nationalistic" idea, instead information of that article is nothing but a word-to-word translation from Russian into English of materials which were written by such famous academicians like Mikhail Gerasimov- historical figure who himself had exhumed the bodies of such historical figures like Tamerlane,Ivan the Terrible, Rudaki, Ulugbek etc. and reconstructed their appearance, so the world could see them. And of course being an anthropologist, Gerasimov used scientific methods to analyze the skulls and classify them...There is nothing good in deleting the article and preventing English speaking peoples be aware of very interesting materials about historical figure's appearance reconstruction. Especially when all this materials are available to the Russian speakers. (Math920 (talk) 03:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC))[reply]

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