Talk:Pieces of Me (song)

one-sided, no discussion of actual music, instruments, rhythm, lyrics etc.

Talk:Pieces of Me/Archive 1

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Questions for Everyking based on recent revert history:

1. Why is it necessary to tell the reader three times what the inspiration for the song was?
2. Why is it necessary to include quotes of Simpson bubbling over the song?
3. Why is it necessary to include the week-by-week chart movement of the song?
4. Why is it necessary to include quotes from so many reviews?
5. Why is a blow-by-blow account of episode four of The Ashlee Simpson Show an important part of this article?
6. Why is a blow-by-blow account of episode seven of The Ashlee Simpson Show an important part of this article?

--Carnildo 02:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

1. Where is it stated three times? Please document the cases of repetition.
2. It is probably not "necessary," but someone looking up information about this album may find it informative.
3. I doubt that it is "necessary." The article would be above stub-grad without it. But if it is accurate, it just makes the article more informative. On the same token, it would be interesting if the article on the 2004 presidential election included a chat of polling data from major agencies throughout the election year.
4. Why not? Why not? The more the better, so long as they are factual and by prominent critics.
5. It seems to be stated in the artice to me. It was the subject of an episode of her reality show... The article is quite informative. I'm learning a lot. Being much older than the typical Wikipedia user, I hadn't even heard of her until this dispute came up. Now I know a lot!
6. Same as above.

--172 04:31, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

1. I removed two of the three in my edit.
2. Look back to Everyking's latest reversion, and tell me with a straight face that all those quotes by Ashlee are neccessary.

I said that it is not necessary. At the same time, it is not necessary to remove them. They are integrated into the text well enough. 172 05:31, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

1. Have you seen the week-by-week movement version? "On its first week on the charts ending September 3, the album ranked third [1]. On the second week, ending September 10, the album ranked second [2]. On the third week, ending September 17 the album fell to fifth [3]. On the fourth week, ending September 24, the album fell to ninth [4]." Such a dense presentation of raw data is a great way of obscuring information, as anyone reading it will have their eyes glaze over. The current presentation, of "opening point, peak, leave the chart" gives the important information, without drowning the reader in data.

If it bothers you so much, just don't read the chart data. No one's holding a gun to your head when you click on an aritcle demanding that you read all the supplements, after all. 172 05:31, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

1. See above. Too much data is a great way of hiding information.

If you think that certain matters are downplayed, expand these areas. Deleting factual content is not the answer, though. 172 05:31, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

1. I cut that paragraph down to half a sentence.
2. I cut that paragraph down to the other half of the sentence.

--Carnildo 04:40, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The current version of the article does not contain redundant information and is more streamlined (especially in the chart-position section), which is why I reverted to it. Madame Sosostris 01:03, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

chart stuff

Any added chart text I add here has already been trimmed from Autobiography sales and chart positions, so it's no longer duplicated. iMeowbot~Mw 04:04, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Would it be possible to combine this with the chart movement parts from the "Single" section? --Carnildo 04:47, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yep. I'm going in little steps so that references don't get lost. There's so much redundancy in all these articles, it's easy to lose track. iMeowbot~Mw 04:52, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"It's your single, and you better get it right." --> "It's your single, and you better figure out a way to do it."

Can I do nothing? I can't even describe the commercial in one sentence? Everyking 07:29, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Excess detail

Hmm, I think this article has quite a bit of excessive detail; for example, we don't need to know that the song is the second track on the album or that Simpson wears a white "punk" shirt and a pink dress in the video. Extraordinary Machine 20:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, I did perform a cleanup of this article a while back ([1]), but Everyking reverted me without explanation. I just realised that I accidentally removed the mention of the Teen Choice Award win, but all of my changes were undone, including ones which only changed formatting. Could Everyking please explain why those edits were reverted? Thanks. Extraordinary Machine 20:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You know, describing removing big chunks of verifiable info as "clean up" is really insulting and irritating. I don't agree with removing any info on grounds of notability, because I think it's all notable and useful. How about this: find anything that isn't referenced or is referenced very poorly and we'll talk about that, and we can remove stuff that can't be properly verified. I would far rather have a discussion based on references than on your personal views about appropriate article length. Everyking 04:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the info is verifiable doesn't necessarily mean that it should be included. Per WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_an_indiscriminate_collection_of_information, "That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in an encyclopedia." Anyway, I've just created a new version of the article at Talk:Pieces of Me/Sandbox; I think it's less excessively detailed than the current version and is more in line with the featured articles about songs (see WP:FA#Music). It would be helpful if you were to list specific problems with my edits rather than just say you'd rather discuss something else. Extraordinary Machine 14:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I think my offer to discuss the inclusion of information based on verifiability was a reasonable compromise that could suit both of our philosophical positions. Everyking 19:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

But the verifiability of the info isn't what I'm concerned about; it's the level of detail in which the info is presented and whether all of it is relevant. (Although, now you mention it, the ARIA chart trajectory will probably have to go unless it can be verified.) Extraordinary Machine 14:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you paying attention? If info is eliminated for not being verifiable, that is functionally equivalent to your request to trim the article; the key difference is that it avoids the shitstorm of controversy that results when incompatible inclusionist and deletionist philosophies clash, as we've seen on this very article in the past. Everyking 04:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Look: "A January 2005 television commercial for season two of The Ashlee Simpson Show depicted a store employee comically singing the song." Now, I know that's true because I saw the commercial myself, but verifying it would probably be impossible. At the same time, and related to the absence of an available source, is the arguable non-notability of the commercial. So, you see, you could remove that uncontroversially; but if someone could find a reasonable cite for it you would agree to let it remain. To sum up: you cannot reach anything close to an consensus on rewriting articles based on your own idiosyncratic philosophy. You can work cooperatively to improve articles based on existing policy, and at the same time achieve something that is broadly in line with your philosophy. Please tell me all that makes sense to you. Everyking 04:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

You are taking two unrelated issues - verifiability and detail - and saying that if there isn't a problem with the first then there isn't a problem with the second. WP:NOT is existing policy, and it explicitly states (as I mentioned above) that "true" does not automatically equal "relevant" or "notable". I do realise you think all verifiable info is "notable and useful", but logically (and policy-wise) it can't be; Wikipedia isn't an "everything-and-the-kitchen-sink" compendium of all human knowledge. How does a mention of the song's use in a non-notable television commercial contribute to the reader's understanding of the topic and its significance? I think user:Carnildo summed this issue up pretty well above: "Too much data is a great way of hiding information". Also, I don't know if this was your intention, but your message has a rather commanding tone to it; for example, please don't tell me I "cannot reach anything close to an consensus" and "would agree to let [verifiable info] remain". Extraordinary Machine 21:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)