Talk:Reserve Officers' Training Corps

Yeah, I added Air Force ROTC. Thought it was unfair to leave out the other branches. I'm not too fluent on Navy ROTC and Marine Option history, so that'd be a good addition.

ROTC in the Philippines

The article is american-centric. There is also an ROTC program in the Philippines—a leftover from the US occupation. I'd write about it, but I'm not entirely familiar with the system. All I know is that, unlike in the USA, the ROTC program in the Philippines is not an elective but a required subject in colleges and universities.

• I'll add a stub section about it, just saying it exists.--Mtnerd 02:51, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
• Modified US-centric sections to show that the US is not the only country with ROTC. I also added the start dates for the ROTC programs in the Philippines, Korea, and Taiwan. -- adroth 16 December 2006
• Write another article dealing specifically with Philippine ROTC. Otherwise, just have a section on it with the ROTC article. Do not mention every nation's ROTC when writing about American ROTC.

• Are the programs in the Philippines, Korea, and Taiwan specifically called "Reserve Officer Training Corps"? If not, they shouldn't even be included here. "Reserve Officer Training Corps" is the official name of the U.S. program, not a description. Just because the programs in other countries are officer training programs at civilian universities doesn't mean they share the same name. Anybody have any info on that?--Nobunaga24 04:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

• Partial answer to my own question. In the Philippines, it looks like it does share the name. Can't find anything about Taiwan or Korea though.--Nobunaga24 04:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I say split it off. It will get too confusing to have an article on ROTC from every single country in the world that has a similar one to the US. Start a new article for ROTC (Philippines) or ROTC (Taiwan), etc.Todd Gallagher 17:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed that the article says: "The Republic of the Philippines established its program in 1912, with the creation of the first unit at the University of the Philippines during American colonial rule." If this is true, then ROTC in the Philippines predates official ROTC in the US. If this is just when they started having military schools, or programs, then it needs to be changed, because just having military training at a school does not make ROTC. That is why we give a brief history about the evolution of ROTC. ROTC in the US was not founded until 1916.Todd Gallagher (talk) 17:32, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Chronology

Could someone put a "chronology" of sorts on this page? I'm still confused about how students go through this.. and then, at the end, what kind of commission that they take (is it required that they take one?), i.e. do they become officers in the regular or reserve military, etc. 01:29, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

ROTC outside the US

I added more details about Philippine ROTC, as well as the Korean and Taiwanese programs.

I think that this article should be renamed "Reserve Officers' Training Corps (United States)," and that the article "Philippine Reserve Officer Training Corps" should be renamed "Reserve Officers' Training Corps (Philippines). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.50.171.134 (talk) 09:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Criticisms

I reworded the criticisms section as it was mostly about ROTC scholarships. Many ROTC participants do not have scholarships. I know I didn't.

Also the real question is whether a democracy should just use a small corps of isolated professionals to defend it or if it should require a more widespread obligation of the citizenry. ROTC was originally created for the later.

Also, there have been many democracies brought down by trying the former. As someone once said, "A democracy without universal military service has fools for soldiers and cowards as citizens" --GCW50 14:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

That section has been giving me problems for a while. It was inserted by an anonymous editor originally, with no counter arguments. I've wanted to insert something along the lines of "Anyone who joins ROTC and is stupid enough to think that the military will never go to war is probably not bright enough to receive a commission in the first place," but a little more encyclopedic than that. --Nobunaga24 14:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Heartily agree. You might also add, "how stupid would they be to expect something for nothing. What do they think this is, a liberal arts degree?" (in more encyclopedic terms, of course). Jquarry 22:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Valley Forge Military Academy

The article gives examples of senior military colleges but none of junior military colleges. I believe Valey Forge Military Academy & Collegeis an examples of a junior military college.

Legal Status of ROTC members??

A couple of us read a news story where an underage ROTC student was considered an "airman" and was "charged" with "indecent acts" while others were given immunity on the "charge" of rape. What is not clear from the story was whether signing up for ROTC in high school -- or college -- then puts you under military law, as either a minor or an adult. Or might this just have been an administrative charge where the only sanction is to be kicked out of ROTC and any future in the military? Are there different kinds of contracts for different age groups or other categories? Just a quick clarification of those types of points might make a better article, including for young people thinking of joining ROTC. Carol Moore 00:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc

This was an incident at the Air Force Academy, not ROTC. ROTC cadets do not fall under the UCMJ until they take their oaths of office as commissioned officers or if their enlistment is activated because they drop out of ROTC. Academy cadets fall under the UCMJ from day 1. — BQZip01 — ^talk 05:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, this needs to be clarified. AR 600-20 specifically recognizes ROTC cadets as a grade, in between officer candidate and cadet, USMA. So all ROTC cadets (actually contracted cadets, not just students enrolled in military science) are enlisted. This is why students who are in both the reserve/Guard and ROTC are known as SMP (SIMULTANEOUS membership program). However, BQZip01 is correct that ROTC cadets are NOT subject to the UCMJ. This is by regulation, not law. Similar to how National Guard soldiers are NOT subject to the UCMJ unless they are under Title 10 activation. Otherwise (under Title 32 or SAD), they are subject only to their respective state codes of military justice.Todd Gallagher 00:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

This specific question was about AFROTC, not army, so AR-600 does not apply. Regulations, by definition, cannot trump the law. Inactive reservists (which is what contracted cadets are; non-contracted cadets [those who have not enlisted/commissioned] have NO responsibility under the UCMJ. Note that the UCMJ does not specifically address ROTC. Therefore, ROTC cadets are not subject to the UCMJ unless they are active duty, such as a reservist who is doing his active duty commitment while being a cadet as well (see 801 ch 1 para 6 in the link). The regulations only restate and clarify the law, not exempt cadets from it. — BQZip01 — ^talk 04:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure if we are disagreeing here or not, because you are not clear. There are TWO separate ranks of cadet, both in the Air Force and in the Army: cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officers' Training Corps, and cadet, United States Military Academy (or Air Force Academy). Cadets, ROTC, are NOT subject to the UCMJ, even if they are contracted. Even National Guard soldiers are not subject to the UCMJ unless they are specifically under Title 10 activation. Fulltime, active duty, Title 32 National Guard soldiers (such as the ones at the Mexcian border right now, or even tech civil service Guardsmen) are EXEMPT from the UCMJ and cannot be prosecuted or punished under it. Cadets, ROTC, are the same way. Federal law, which codifies the UCMJ, only allows the academy cadets to be subject to it.Todd Gallagher 23:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

After you guys decide, feel free to put it in the appropriate spot in the article :-)

Carol Moore 00:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc

LOL! Thanks Carol. I'm trying to point out that the given question pertains to AFROTC, not the army and that army rules don't apply. In addition, there is no distinction between cadets at various institutions just like there is no difference in rank between a Major in the Reserves and a Major in the active duty, only that one is in a different entity. — BQZip01 — ^talk 04:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

ROTC cadet and USAF cadet are two separate ranks. Just as officer candidate is a separate rank, yet all with the same purpose. The UCMJ is clear that it only applies to academy cadets, not ROTC cadets. I did ROTC at two separate schools, as well as my wife at two, and my brother at one. I understand teh regs and applicable laws. Otehrwise, show me one ROTC cadets, just one, who has ever been prosecuted or even punished under the UCMJ. I will show you several academy cadets. Mysteriously, since you say there is no distinction, not a single ROTC cadet will be among them (even though there are thousands of more ROTC cadets than academy cadets).Todd Gallagher 11:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Todd, first, I didn't state there was no distinction at all between the cadets of ROTC and those of the service academies. I was trying to point out that there is no difference in their rank. The ROTC cadets do not fall under the UCMJ (in almost all cases). The service academy cadets do. I am not disputing that.

Your document states in Table 1-1 that cadets from the USMA "outrank" those from ROTC, but does not mention OCS? Furthermore, table 1-2 (page 24) does not show any correlation between the other services. If I read this correctly, this document states that the most senior AROTC cadet is junior in rank to a freshman at West Point? Seems a little fishy to me and doesn't take into account their ranks at their respective schools. I'm not saying you are wrong with Army ROTC, just that ambiguous wording has been a problem in military regulations since time began...

On top of that, there is no way listed in Chapter 6 to determine rank between cadets. Seems like quite an oversight if your assertion is true.

This that shows where ROTC cadets CAN be prosecuted under the UCMJ, but only if they are enlisted and geting their degree as part of the AECP program. In short, AFROTC cadets are cadets just like the Air Force Academy (Navy too?)and it may simply be different with the Army.

Honestly, I wish they just were a little more explicit in the position of Cadets/Midshipmen in the military. They need to have SOME authority. — BQZip01 — ^talk 16:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

"Your document states in Table 1-1 that cadets from the USMA 'outrank' those from ROTC, but does not mention OCS?" USMA cadets do outrank ROTC cadets. Plain and simple. Just as a second lieutenant outranks the sergeant major of the Army. As for OC's and WOC's, it does mention them. Their is no rank "OCS." The insignia for officer candidate is "OCS," but the abbreviation is OC. WOC, OC, CDT (ROTC), and CDT (USMA) are all mentioned. As for other services, not all other services have ROTC programs. The Marine Corps does not have ROTC or an academy. The Coast Guard does not have ROTC. So there are not correlations with the WOC, OC, and two CDT grades. "On top of that, there is no way listed in Chapter 6 to determine rank between cadets." Not sure what you mean. "In short, AFROTC cadets are cadets just like the Air Force Academy (Navy too?)and it may simply be different with the Army." No they are not. Your example of Air Force cadets in ROTC is not accurate. Those are PRIOR-service airmen going through ROTC, and are subject to the UCMJ as airmen, not as cadets. Re-read the regulation. Even Army cadets who are SMP (in the Guard/Reserves at the same time) are subject to the UCMJ, but not as cadets, as their private, specialist, or NCO rank in the reserves. I do agree it should be clearer, and I am not even familiar with why ROTC cadets are exempt from the UCMJ. But, just as I mentioned with Title 32 National Guard soldiers, they are exempt. Remember, the UCMJ is the UNIFORM Code of Military Justice--it is not applied to one service differently than the others.Todd Gallagher 20:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Where does it say that USMA cadets outrank ROTC cadets? As far as I know the only people cadets outrank are each other, i.e. cadet ranks. USMA cadets and ROTC cadets are just that, cadets. They are not in the chain of command outside of the cadet world. Just because USMA cadets are subject to UCMJ doesn't mean that they outrank ROTC cadets. Cadets definitely don't outrank any enlisted men; I went to airborne school as an ROTC cadet, with USMA cadets, and we were all told, plain and simple, that E1's outranked us. OCS candidates have to possess some kind of rank because they either applied as enlisted men, or direct commissioned. Of course, I haven't cited anything, but I haven't seen a citation for this ROTC/USMA/Cadet rank issue either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.24.90.157 (talk) 22:45, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, at Jump School or Air Assault School or any other school you attend, do whatever the cadre tell you. In the military, you will quickly learn that reality and regulation are two separate things. You state: "we were all told, plain and simple, that E1's outranked us." Well, I would not get into an argument, but whoever told you that is full of crap. They are probably not the brighest, so don't even waste your time with them. If you would like to pat yourself on the back knowing that you are right (or if it ever came down to an issue) read AR 600-20 (http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r600_20.pdf). Cadets, both USMA and ROTC, outrank all other enlisted personnel (cadets are legally enlisted soldiers--read your contract). AR 600-20(1)(6)(a): "Grade and precedence of rank confers eligibility to exercise command or authority in the U.S. military within limits prescribed by law." The grades of rank are then listed in order:

-General of the Army

-General

-Lieutentant General

-Major General

-Brigadier General

-Colonel

-Lieutenant Colonel

-Major

-Captain

-First Lieutenant

-Second Lieutenant

-Chief Warrant Officer, Five

-Chief Warrant Officer, Four

-Chief Warrant Officer, Three

-Chief Warrant Officer, Two

-Warrant Officer, One

-Cadet, USMA

-Cadet, ROTC

-Officer Candidate

-Warrant Officer Candidate

-Sergeant Major of the Army

-Command Sergeant Major

-Sergeant Major

-First Sergeant

-Master Sergeant

-Sergeant First Class

-Staff Sergeant

-Sergeant

-Corporal

-Specialist

-Private First Class

-Private

-Private

There is nothing Hard to comprehend about this list. Army Command Policy list cadets above all other enlisted ranks. Plain and simple.Todd Gallagher (talk) 04:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

As I stated before, this is an Army regulation, not DoD. Furthermore, there are ROTC cadets that do not have a contract and are not enlisted. I am not saying you are wrong with regards to Army regs, BUT some of your statements are oversimplified or paint a broad, DoD-wide picture when the scope is limited. — BQZip01 — ^talk 06:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Outline of ROTC

It has been several years since I did ROTC and I know the current program has changed. Someone should do some research and list the current outline of the program. For instance, the scholarship/nonscholarship cadets; the contracting; the program itself (MS-I thru MS IV); basic camp (or LTC or whatever they call it now); advanced camp; the regions (there were three when I was in; I know there were four at one time); the role of the PMS; the SMP program; CLTC; the available schools like Jump School or Air Assault etc; the choosing of branch and selection; how multiple schools can be in the same battalion or brigade (host schools, etc); and so on. The article does not give very much information on Army ROTC, but rather on its history. Todd Gallagher (talk) 20:22, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur with the basics of Todd's request, but, please realize that terminology and training regimens are not the same between different services. — BQZip01 — ^talk 21:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Mandatory Active Service?

After graduating from ROTC, does one have to serve in the armed forces?

One doesn't "graduate" from ROTC, though you graduate from college. ROTC requires classes during college. At some point you actually enlist in the reserves (though inactive and not subject to UCMJ rules at any point you are not under orders) Upon graduation, you have fulfilled all the requirements of your contract and are eligible to receive a commission. Though a commission is not guaranteed, it is a highly likely outcome. Please sign your posts and direct further questions to the Wikipedia:Reference desk. If you have more personal questions, please contact me on my user talk page. — BQZip01 — ^talk 03:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

If you contract, then you do have to go in the military. In most cases, you are not allowed to take more than 2 years of ROTC without contracting. Exceptions would be at the Senior Military Colleges, where you can take all four years and not contract.Todd Gallagher (talk) 03:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

For the sake of clarification, I went to an SMC and you are not allowed to take ROTC classes after your second year (though the first two are mandatory) unless you are on a contract. I'm not saying this is the case anywhere else, but it was at my school. — BQZip01 — ^talk 22:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

At my brother's school, Virginia Military Institute, you only take ROTC your first 2 years also. However, you stayed in the Corps of Cadets. At my school, North Georgia College, all the cadets took ROTC all four years. One reason for this may be that North Georgia is the only SMC with only one ROTC program. Thus, the Corps of Cadets and the ROTC detachment are the same. At VMI, there was a Corps of Cadets and there were ROTC detachments for the various services. So technically, you could be a cadet private in the Army ROTC and at the same time be the regimental commander of the Corps of Cadets. This may explain your school's reason as well. As for Army regulations, SMC's are authorized to allow cadets to take it all four years and not commission.Todd Gallagher (talk) 18:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

No argument there. It appears few SMCs have decided to require cadets to take ROTC all four years. — BQZip01 — ^talk 20:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The entire article fail to explain what the point of the training corps is

The article lacks a good introduction that in a paragraph or so explain more generally what the ROTC are. Someone who compeltly lacks knowledge will have not be able to understand much of the article. 21:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)knott

In other countries

Other countries have programs which correspond to ROTC. Australia has University Regiments, France has Préparation Militaire Supérieure, and Spain has University Militias. China reportedly also has an ROTC-type program. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.107.159.134 (talk) 09:41, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Controversy

For some reason, I was under the impression that there were some anti-ROTC groups out there, and at least some form of opposition on many campuses with and without ROTC programs. I believe that there are some concerns over the way the programs are run or how they are funded. At any rate, I know that there is enough opposition to the ROTC that it warrants mentioning in this article. Could someone look into why this section doesn't exist? TrogdorPolitiks (talk)